At 07:41 PM 9/19/2011, E Bruce Brooks wrote:
In Response To: Bob Schacht
I had suggested that all NT texts self-identify themselves as Christian.
On the term Christian, we had:
BOB: Of course, the case for the 3 NT uses is greater if we accept the
correct historicity of their reports, especially
1 Peter 4:16 , which supposedly comes from Peter himself.
BRUCE: Which it doesn�t. But the point for identification purposes is not
that a text say �This is a Christian text� (Christian, as the dubiously
reliable Luke perhaps helpfully suggests, being in all probability an
outsider term for the sect), but that it acknowledge Jesus as the Christ,
or shall we say Messiah.
Oh, so now you want a confession of faith-- from who? The author?
You have moved the goalposts again. We don't need "This is a
Christian text," but language such as "when the Christians met
in Antioch," or "when Paul met the Christians in
Jerusalem" or when Paul had that issue with the Baptism of John,
that could have been framed in terms of a "Christian"
requirement-- but it wasn't. We do have 3 uses of the term Christian in
the NT, however.
I should imagine
that the point for a Gnostic text, if there are any, is not that it carry
a colophon saying �published by the Gnostic Distribution House,� but that
it internally focus on knowledge, rather than repentance and forgiveness,
or yet on vicarious atonement, as the way to get out of the mess of this
Your phrase beginning "not that it carry..." is a mere parody
and is not worth serious consideration. You are right to focus on
knowledge-- here is the way the Wikipedia article on Gnosticism described
characteristic of some of these groups was the teaching that the
realisation of Gnosis
(esoteric or intuitive knowledge), is the way to
salvation of the
soul from the material world. They saw the material world as created
through an intermediary being
than directly by God.
So, by their soteriology shall we know them. Also, they were wedded to a
particular cosmology alluded to by the second sentence. This of course is
the cosmology of the neoplatonists, and different in significant respect
from what Christian soteriology and cosmology would become.
Northern Arizona University