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Re: Date of GThomas

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  • M.W. Grondin
    Over the weekend, I learned that: (1) Irenaeus Adv.Haer. contains a close parallel to a story in IGT, and that (2) it also contains two distant parallels to
    Message 1 of 2 , Feb 28, 2011
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      Over the weekend, I learned that:
      (1) Irenaeus' Adv.Haer. contains a close parallel to a story in IGT, and that
      (2) it also contains two distant parallels to Thomas sayings, and that
      (3) the errors in the GTh section of Schneelmelcher's 1959/63 edition of
      New Testament Apocrypha are still finding their way onto the internet.
       
      This all came about because Google Alerts pointed to a Thomas discussion
      on an unlikely venue:
      ... wherein one of the discussants had cited IGT in support of a point he was
      making. One Martin Amdahl responded with a number of statements about
      IGT and GTh that I thought were off the mark, but more importantly with a
      citation of chapter 13 of Irenaeus' book as containing the parallel to IGT. Not
      finding it there in my online source, I wrote to Amdahl. Turns out that he was
      using something called the "Harvey numbering", which isn't the numbering used
      at the site where I was searching (nor by DeConick, in what follows below).
      The parallel to IGT is in chapter 20, on the writings of the Marcosians:
       
      At the end of his note, Amdahl indicated that this same chapter ( but section 2)
      contained what he thought was a reference to Th.38.1. The passage in question
      ("I have often desired to hear one of these words, but had no one who could
      utter it") didn't seem to me to very close, but I consulted DeConick's TGOTT to
      see how she handled it. It's listed as a parallel, though that doesn't mean much,
      since she seems to have wanted her parallels to be as inclusive as possible. 
      Her Source Discussion of 38.1 consists of a single sentence:
       
      "G. Quispel attributes this saying to a Jewish Christian Gospel,
      perhaps the Gospel of the Nazarenes."
       
      Given that in I.20.2, Irenaeus is discussing how the Marcosians interpreted various
      gospel passages, it makes sense that the passage in question should be from some
      gospel or other, though no one knows for sure which. In any case, it turns out
      that there's (just) one other Thomas saying that DeConick lists as having a parallel in
      Irenaeus, namely Th23.1. The passage in question ("The multitude cannot understand
      these things, but one of a thousand and two of ten thousand") occurs in ch.24, which
      is about "the doctrines of Saturninus and Basilides".
       
      Interestingly, DeConick's Source Discussion of 23.1 is almost exactly the same single
      sentence as above, except that she uses the word 'probably' instead of 'perhaps'. Prima
      facie, that would imply that she's more certain that Quispel is right about 23.1 than that
      he's right about 38.1.
       
      As to Schneemelcher's NTA, it turns out that the errors I spotted in Amdahl's
      statements about GTh (e.g., its being in Codex III instead of Codex II), came from
      the 1959/63 edition. In the 1991 edition, the GTh section was entirely replaced by one
      written by Beate Blatz. But in perusing p.280 of the 1959/63 edition, I came across
      something unexpected - a translation of the Hippolytus passage quoted from the
      Layton book in my previous note, and by the same translator (Wendland), but with 
      an English wording in the "key spot" that doesn't support my hypothesis. I assume
      that this must be due to the different versions of the Hippolytus work in Greek, but
      in any case, if I want to continue harboring the hypothesis, I'll have to somehow
      untangle the Greek and account for the differences in the Wendland translations.
       
      Mike G.
    • Bob Schacht
      ... This is a nice piece of work, Mike. Good digging! Thanks! Bob Schacht
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 1, 2011
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        At 12:45 AM 3/1/2011, M.W. Grondin wrote:


        Over the weekend, I learned that:
        (1) Irenaeus' Adv.Haer. contains a close parallel to a story in IGT, and that
        (2) it also contains two distant parallels to Thomas sayings, and that
        (3) the errors in the GTh section of Schneelmelcher's 1959/63 edition of
        New Testament Apocrypha are still finding their way onto the internet.

        This is a nice piece of work, Mike. Good digging! Thanks!
        Bob Schacht

         
        This all came about because Google Alerts pointed to a Thomas discussion
        on an unlikely venue:
        http://groups.google.com/group/alt.english.usage/msg/eb3513bf0fcc219b
        ... wherein one of the discussants had cited IGT in support of a point he was
        making. One Martin Amdahl responded with a number of statements about
        IGT and GTh that I thought were off the mark, but more importantly with a
        citation of chapter 13 of Irenaeus' book as containing the parallel to IGT. Not
        finding it there in my online source, I wrote to Amdahl. Turns out that he was
        using something called the "Harvey numbering", which isn't the numbering used
        at the site where I was searching (nor by DeConick, in what follows below).
        The parallel to IGT is in chapter 20, on the writings of the Marcosians:
        http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.xxi.html
         
        At the end of his note, Amdahl indicated that this same chapter ( but section 2)
        contained what he thought was a reference to Th.38.1. The passage in question
        ("I have often desired to hear one of these words, but had no one who could
        utter it") didn't seem to me to very close, but I consulted DeConick's TGOTT to
        see how she handled it. It's listed as a parallel, though that doesn't mean much,
        since she seems to have wanted her parallels to be as inclusive as possible.
        Her Source Discussion of 38.1 consists of a single sentence:
         
        "G. Quispel attributes this saying to a Jewish Christian Gospel,
        perhaps the Gospel of the Nazarenes."
         
        Given that in I.20.2, Irenaeus is discussing how the Marcosians interpreted various
        gospel passages, it makes sense that the passage in question should be from some
        gospel or other, though no one knows for sure which. In any case, it turns out
        that there's (just) one other Thomas saying that DeConick lists as having a parallel in
        Irenaeus, namely Th23.1. The passage in question ("The multitude cannot understand
        these things, but one of a thousand and two of ten thousand") occurs in ch.24, which
        is about "the doctrines of Saturninus and Basilides".
        http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.xxv.html (see section 6)
         
        Interestingly, DeConick's Source Discussion of 23.1 is almost exactly the same single
        sentence as above, except that she uses the word 'probably' instead of 'perhaps'. Prima
        facie, that would imply that she's more certain that Quispel is right about 23.1 than that
        he's right about 38.1.
         
        As to Schneemelcher's NTA, it turns out that the errors I spotted in Amdahl's
        statements about GTh (e.g., its being in Codex III instead of Codex II), came from
        the 1959/63 edition. In the 1991 edition, the GTh section was entirely replaced by one
        written by Beate Blatz. But in perusing p.280 of the 1959/63 edition, I came across
        something unexpected - a translation of the Hippolytus passage quoted from the
        Layton book in my previous note, and by the same translator (Wendland), but with
        an English wording in the "key spot" that doesn't support my hypothesis. I assume
        that this must be due to the different versions of the Hippolytus work in Greek, but
        in any case, if I want to continue harboring the hypothesis, I'll have to somehow
        untangle the Greek and account for the differences in the Wendland translations.
         
        Mike G.


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