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RE: [GTh] Coptic Keyboarding

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  • Rick Hubbard
    Hi Mike- It s not easy being me sometimes. ... [||] ... yielded ... [||] I spent way too much time fiddling with this issue last night (Read: I m going to work
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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      Hi Mike-

      It's not easy being me sometimes.
      I wrote:
      ||>........Coptic words will sort alphabetically (except that ti and
      ||> janjia seem to be in reverse order for some reason).
      [||]
      You replied:
      ||
      ||I've tested this, Rick, and I can't duplicate your result. My Excel- sorts
      yielded
      ||correct results.
      [||]
      I spent way too much time fiddling with this issue last night (Read: I'm
      going to work today with very little sleep). After trying everything I could
      think of (re-entering the key strokes, saving to different files and so
      forth), I still had the same sorting problems I described. I've finally
      reached the conclusion that there is a glitch in the new version of Excel
      2010. How, you may ask, did I determine that? Well, as I said it is not easy
      being me: I took another computer I had here that I was going to install
      Ubuntu onto, did a clean install of Windows XP, then installed MS Office
      2003 (with Excel 2003). After I got it up and running I loaded the file I
      had been sorting in Excel 2010 (in the old xls file format) and LO! The sort
      was correct. Go figure.

      In the midst of all this I also installed the Askeland keyboard so I could
      get a first hand idea of the difference between it and Mastronarde's. There
      is much to be commended in Askeland's utility, the most significant of which
      is NOT needing to go through all the hoops of entering the 5 Egyptian
      glyphs. On the other hand I really do like Mastronarde's method of doing
      superlinears (shift plus the letter). All in all, I guess if I had to choose
      between the two I'd go with Askeland just to avoid all the ctrl+alt nonsense
      (BTW, there are some glyphs in Mastronarde's that require shift+ctrl+alt+
      another key. I think that could result in hospitalization if done too
      frequently).

      Rick Hubbard
    • Michael Grondin
      ... Apologies to Rick and other readers for what I said in my previous note about the function of the shift key in the Mastronarde/Logos keyboard. Rick is
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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        Rick wrote:
        > There is much to be commended in Askeland's utility, the most
        significant
        > of which is NOT needing to go through all the hoops of entering
        the 5 Egyptian
        > glyphs. On the other hand I really do like Mastronarde's
        method of doing
        > superlinears (shift plus the letter).
         
        Apologies to Rick and other readers for what I said in my previous note
        about the function of the shift key in the Mastronarde/Logos keyboard.
        Rick is correct that a shifted alpha types the letter with an overstroke,
        and I entirely agree that that's a very nice feature. It is also present in
        the two legacy fonts I used on my site: Coptic, and Bernhard's NHC2.
        The way the Askeland keyboard handles overstrokes is with shift-a.
        One types the letter to be overstroked, then types shift-a. Not as quick
        and easy as the Mastronarde/Logos keyboard, but not too bad.
         
        Now on to the matter of Unicode fonts. Aside from the Coptic letters,
        I'm unhappy with the general raggedy look of the fonts I've seen so far,
        so I'm trying to find (a free) one that I can love (:-) Unfortunately, as I've
        mentioned before, not all Unicode fonts have the Coptic block. I wasted
        some time last night downloading a few that didn't. (I think the ones that
        don't are older ones.) But in mucking around, I was able to find a site
        that groups Unicode fonts according to which blocks of the standard
         
        The Windows Unicode fonts that contain the Coptic block are listed as:
        ALPHABETUM Unicode, Analecta, Code2000, Free Serif, MPH 2B Damase,
        New Athena Unicode, Quivira, TITUS Cyberbit Basic
         
        I don't know how old this list is (Antinoou isn't listed because it's too new;
        not sure why Arial Unicode MS isn't listed), but I'll be trying to find and
        download the ones I don't already have, hoping for something better
        than what I've seen so far.
         
        Mike G.
      • Richard Hubbard
        Hi Mike- Thanks for the info on the alternative Unicode fonts. I downloaded some of them to see what they look like. The two I think look best are Analecta and
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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          Hi Mike-

          Thanks for the info on the alternative Unicode fonts. I downloaded some
          of them to see what they look like. The two I think look best are
          Analecta and Titus. Both have some general appearance similarities to
          Coptic and NHC fonts. I'll be curious to see which (if any of these)
          meet your high esthetic standards :-)

          Also, much to my complete surprise I tried using the Arial Unicode MS
          font today and would you believe that out of 38,000 code points there
          are none for Coptic?

          Which (sort of) leads to another item of interest. As you know I have a
          rather large-ish database of Coptic vocabulary all in legacy fonts. I
          wonder what will be involved in converting this data to Unicode? I know
          there are some font converters out there for Greek legacy fonts: I tried
          an on-line one today and was really pleased with it. I pasted in about
          10,000 words from my GNT database (all in sgreek legacy font) and it
          made the change in just a few minutes, I imported the text in back into
          the data base and, like the Coptic Unicode, it sorts exactly the way it
          is supposed to (meaning no more convoluted programming to create
          artificial sort orders for THIS guy).

          BTW, I hope we are not boring everybody with this current topic. My
          apologies if we are

          Rick Hubbard



          |
          |Apologies to Rick and other readers for what I said in my previous note
          about the
          |function of the shift key in the Mastronarde/Logos keyboard.
          |Rick is correct that a shifted alpha types the letter with an
          overstroke, and I entirely
          |agree that that's a very nice feature. It is also present in the two
          legacy fonts I used
          |on my site: Coptic, and Bernhard's NHC2.
          |The way the Askeland keyboard handles overstrokes is with shift-a.
          |One types the letter to be overstroked, then types shift-a. Not as
          quick and easy as
          |the Mastronarde/Logos keyboard, but not too bad.
          |
          |Now on to the matter of Unicode fonts. Aside from the Coptic letters,
          I'm unhappy
          |with the general raggedy look of the fonts I've seen so far, so I'm
          trying to find (a
          |free) one that I can love (:-) Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before,
          not all Unicode
          |fonts have the Coptic block. I wasted some time last night downloading
          a few that
          |didn't. (I think the ones that don't are older ones.) But in mucking
          around, I was able
          |to find a site that groups Unicode fonts according to which blocks of
          the standard
          |they contain: [ http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fontsbyrange.html
          |]http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fontsbyrange.html
          |
          |The Windows Unicode fonts that contain the Coptic block are listed as:
          |ALPHABETUM Unicode, Analecta, Code2000, Free Serif, MPH 2B Damase, New
          |Athena Unicode, Quivira, TITUS Cyberbit Basic
          |
          |I don't know how old this list is (Antinoou isn't listed because it's
          too new; not sure
          |why Arial Unicode MS isn't listed), but I'll be trying to find and
          download the ones I
          |don't already have, hoping for something better than what I've seen so
          far.
          |
          |Mike G.
          |
          |
          |
        • Michael Grondin
          Alas, there s no end to my blundering. But at least I try to correct all mistakes. The shifted-alpha keys on the Logos keyboard don t do the same thing (viz.,
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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            Alas, there's no end to my blundering. But at least I try to correct
            all mistakes. The shifted-alpha keys on the Logos keyboard don't
            do the same thing (viz., overstrike) as the shifted-alpha keys on
            the Mastronarde keyboard. So the two aren't the same after all.
            Perhaps Mastronarde used the MS Keyboard Layout Creator
            to alter the Logos keyboard. In any case, MSKLC was mentioned
            to me by Christian Askeland as the tool he used to create his
            keyboard, and I have now downloaded it (free) from:

            http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx

            If I can get some time to do so, I hope to create a Coptic Unicode
            keyboard that uses the CS standard in its assignment of keys.
            (There's more than one CS font, BTW, but they all use the CS standard,
            so the keying is the same for any CS font.) I think that this will be a
            nice addition to the Coptic keyboards we've been discussing, assuming
            I can figure out how to do it. (I'm also assuming that no one else has
            yet done this. I haven't seen it in my searches, but I better check it out
            more thoroughly first.) What I'm thinking is that such a keyboard might
            (since it uses numeric keys for the extra letters) be able to combine
            the virtues of the Mastronarde and Askeland keyboards.

            Mike G.
          • Richard Hubbard
            Hey Mike- Check this out: [ http://www.kbdedit.com Looks like a pretty full-featured keyboard creator to me. Rick ... all mistakes. The ... overstrike) ...
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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              Hey Mike-

              Check this out:

              [ http://www.kbdedit.com

              Looks like a pretty full-featured keyboard creator to me.

              Rick


              |-----Original Message-----
              |From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com]
              |Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 3:11 PM
              |To: Richard Hubbard; gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              |Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [GTh] Coptic Keyboarding
              |Importance: Low
              |
              |
              |
              |
              |Alas, there's no end to my blundering. But at least I try to correct
              all mistakes. The
              |shifted-alpha keys on the Logos keyboard don't do the same thing (viz.,
              overstrike)
              |as the shifted-alpha keys on the Mastronarde keyboard. So the two
              aren't the same
              |after all.
              |Perhaps Mastronarde used the MS Keyboard Layout Creator to alter the
              Logos
              |keyboard. In any case, MSKLC was mentioned to me by Christian Askeland
              as the
              |tool he used to create his keyboard, and I have now downloaded it
              (free) from:
              |
              |[ http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx
              |]http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx
              |
              |If I can get some time to do so, I hope to create a Coptic Unicode
              keyboard that uses
              |the CS standard in its assignment of keys.
              |(There's more than one CS font, BTW, but they all use the CS standard,
              so the
              |keying is the same for any CS font.) I think that this will be a nice
              addition to the
              |Coptic keyboards we've been discussing, assuming I can figure out how
              to do it. (I'm
              |also assuming that no one else has yet done this. I haven't seen it in
              my searches,
              |but I better check it out more thoroughly first.) What I'm thinking is
              that such a
              |keyboard might (since it uses numeric keys for the extra letters) be
              able to combine
              |the virtues of the Mastronarde and Askeland keyboards.
              |
              |Mike G.
              |
              |
              |
              |
              |
            • Richard Hubbard
              Hi Mike- One more thing I m curious about. Layton (somewhere) has a list of the glyphs that **never** have their own superlinear, so having the shift
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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                Hi Mike-

                One more thing I'm curious about. Layton (somewhere) has a list of the
                glyphs that **never** have their own superlinear, so having the shift
                superlinear function would not be necessary for all letters- that would
                free up some keys, right? Or am I missing something here?




                |-----Original Message-----
                |From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com]
                |Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 3:11 PM
                |To: Richard Hubbard; gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                |Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [GTh] Coptic Keyboarding
                |Importance: Low
                |
                |
                |
                |
                |Alas, there's no end to my blundering. But at least I try to correct
                all mistakes. The
                |shifted-alpha keys on the Logos keyboard don't do the same thing (viz.,
                overstrike)
                |as the shifted-alpha keys on the Mastronarde keyboard. So the two
                aren't the same
                |after all.
                |Perhaps Mastronarde used the MS Keyboard Layout Creator to alter the
                Logos
                |keyboard. In any case, MSKLC was mentioned to me by Christian Askeland
                as the
                |tool he used to create his keyboard, and I have now downloaded it
                (free) from:
                |
                |[ http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx
                |]http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx
                |
                |If I can get some time to do so, I hope to create a Coptic Unicode
                keyboard that uses
                |the CS standard in its assignment of keys.
                |(There's more than one CS font, BTW, but they all use the CS standard,
                so the
                |keying is the same for any CS font.) I think that this will be a nice
                addition to the
                |Coptic keyboards we've been discussing, assuming I can figure out how
                to do it. (I'm
                |also assuming that no one else has yet done this. I haven't seen it in
                my searches,
                |but I better check it out more thoroughly first.) What I'm thinking is
                that such a
                |keyboard might (since it uses numeric keys for the extra letters) be
                able to combine
                |the virtues of the Mastronarde and Askeland keyboards.
                |
                |Mike G.
                |
                |
                |
                |
                |
              • Rick Hubbard
                Hi Mike: ... keyboard that ... the ... addition to the ... do it. ... in my ... thinking is ... letters) be ... [||] If I m not mistaken Mike, all the CS fonts
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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                  Hi Mike:

                  Your wrote:
                  ||
                  ||If I can get some time to do so, I hope to create a Coptic Unicode
                  keyboard that
                  ||uses the CS standard in its assignment of keys.
                  ||(There's more than one CS font, BTW, but they all use the CS standard, so
                  the
                  ||keying is the same for any CS font.) I think that this will be a nice
                  addition to the
                  ||Coptic keyboards we've been discussing, assuming I can figure out how to
                  do it.
                  ||(I'm also assuming that no one else has yet done this. I haven't seen it
                  in my
                  ||searches, but I better check it out more thoroughly first.) What I'm
                  thinking is
                  ||that such a keyboard might (since it uses numeric keys for the extra
                  letters) be
                  ||able to combine the virtues of the Mastronarde and Askeland keyboards.
                  [||]

                  If I'm not mistaken Mike, all the CS fonts are legacy, non-Unicode. Maybe I
                  missed something though, or maybe you want to just bag this whole Unicode
                  thing.

                  Rick
                • Judy Redman
                  Sorry to bound into this without reading the full thread but I am absolutely frantically busy at the moment. I have been typing Coptic using Unicode fonts more
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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                    Sorry to bound into this without reading the full thread but I am absolutely frantically busy at the moment. I have been typing Coptic using Unicode fonts more or less ever since I started doing my Masters on GosThom (six years?). I use the Logos Coptic keyboard. I’ve blogged about it and you might find the info here http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2010/05/22/typing-coptic-2/ useful.

                     

                    Regards

                     

                    Judy

                     

                    --

                    Judy Redman
                    PhD Candidate, School of Humanities
                    University of New England
                    Armidale 2351 Australia
                    ph:  +61 2 6773 3401
                    mob: 0437 044 579
                    web: 
                     http://judyredman.wordpress.com/
                    email: 
                     jredman2@...
                     

                     

                    From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Hubbard
                    Sent: Thursday, 2 September 2010 8:11 AM
                    To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [GTh] Coptic Keyboarding

                     

                     

                    Hi Mike:

                    Your wrote:
                    ||
                    ||If I can get some time to do so, I hope to create a Coptic Unicode
                    keyboard that
                    ||uses the CS standard in its assignment of keys.
                    ||(There's more than one CS font, BTW, but they all use the CS standard, so
                    the
                    ||keying is the same for any CS font.) I think that this will be a nice
                    addition to the
                    ||Coptic keyboards we've been discussing, assuming I can figure out how to
                    do it.
                    ||(I'm also assuming that no one else has yet done this. I haven't seen it
                    in my
                    ||searches, but I better check it out more thoroughly first.) What I'm
                    thinking is
                    ||that such a keyboard might (since it uses numeric keys for the extra
                    letters) be
                    ||able to combine the virtues of the Mastronarde and Askeland keyboards.
                    [||]

                    If I'm not mistaken Mike, all the CS fonts are legacy, non-Unicode. Maybe I
                    missed something though, or maybe you want to just bag this whole Unicode
                    thing.

                    Rick

                  • Michael Grondin
                    ... No, it s not that. Although the CS fonts themselves are legacy fonts, they all adhere to the Coptic Fonts Standard for mapping the Coptic letters onto a
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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                      Rick wrote:
                      > If I'm not mistaken Mike, all the CS fonts are legacy,
                      non-Unicode.
                      > Maybe I missed something though, or maybe you want to just
                      bag
                      > this whole Unicode thing.

                      No, it's not that. Although the CS fonts themselves are legacy fonts,
                      they all adhere to the Coptic Fonts Standard for mapping the Coptic
                      letters onto a QWERTY keyboard. There's no reason why this same
                      mapping can't be done onto a Coptic Unicode keyboard, for use with
                      a Unicode font. This would enable those who were familiar with the
                      specific keying required for a CS font (ti as ']', e.g.) to type exactly the
                      same way when using a Unicode font. The advantage for us non-CS
                      users is that the Coptic Fonts Standard (CFS) uses non-alpha keyboard
                      keys for some letters ('[', ']', e.g.) thus (by increasing the number of
                      basic keys used from 26 to 31) making it possible to avoid both (1)
                      putting two different Coptic letters on some of the keys (Askeland)
                      and (2) using special keys for some letters (Mastronarde).

                      I have, however, somewhat cooled to this idea as I've looked more into
                      the Coptic Fonts Standard. Much of the reason for that is that I had
                      hoped to use the shifted-alpha keys as Mastronarde does, namely as
                      overstroked versions of the same letters assigned to the unshifted alpha
                      keys. But I see that the CFS uses the shifted-alpha keys for larger
                      versions of the same letters, while the over-stroke is on the '=' key. This
                      would prevent my proposed keyboard from being fully CFS-compliant.

                      I've uploaded the character-mapping specs for CFS here:
                      http://www.gospel-thomas.net/coptic_font_standard.pdf

                      ... which came in the "Download for Windows" file from here:
                      http://www.copticchurch.net/coptic_fonts/

                      Mike
                    • Michael Grondin
                      ... Well, I guess I would say yes and no . True, there s some letters that don t normally get their own superlinear stroke, but yet may need to be overlined
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
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                        Rick wrote:
                        > One more thing I'm curious about. Layton (somewhere) has a list of
                        > the glyphs that **never** have their own superlinear, so having the
                        shift
                        > superlinear function would not be necessary for all letters- that
                        would
                        > free up some keys, right? Or am I missing something
                        here?

                        Well, I guess I would say 'yes and no'. True, there's some letters that
                        don't normally get their own superlinear stroke, but yet may need to
                        be overlined on occasion. One example is Greek numbers (which
                        the Copts used, as you know, and which were, of course, composed
                        of overlined letters). Another is nomina sacra. Less obviously, there's
                        those strange "names" associated with body parts in the Apocryphon
                        of John, where the whole lengthy "name" is overlined.
                         
                        Still, most of the letters are rarely overlined, so the idea makes
                        sense to me. I assume you're thinking of the possibility of freeing
                        up some upper-case keys on the Mastronarde keyboard so that
                        the ctrl-alt function could be eliminated?
                         
                        Mike
                      • Michael Grondin
                        ... There s a lot to digest there, and I ll be reading it over more carefully, but a quick scan indicates that Judy isn t using the Logos keyboard per se.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 2, 2010
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                          Judy wrote:
                          > Sorry to bound into this without reading the full thread but I am
                          > absolutely frantically busy at the moment. I have been typing Coptic
                          > using Unicode fonts more or less ever since I started doing my
                          > Masters on GosThom (six years?). I use the Logos Coptic keyboard.
                          > I've blogged about it and you might find the info here
                          > http://judyredman.wordpress.com/2010/05/22/typing-coptic-2/ useful.

                          There's a lot to digest there, and I'll be reading it over more carefully,
                          but a quick scan indicates that Judy isn't using the Logos keyboard per
                          se. She's using a version of it, modified by her son, using MSKLC* to
                          eliminate those same four pesky ctrl-alt letters that show up on the
                          Mastronarde keyboard. They were interchanged with the (apparently
                          unnecessary) letters at shift-T, shift-F, shift-H and shift-J. In talking
                          about this, however, Judy and her correspondents refer to 'Alt-Gr',
                          which is evidently the same as the two-key combo we've been calling
                          'Alt-Ctrl'. OK, but what does 'Gr' stand for? That's what I'd like to know,
                          mates. And is it the same on British keyboards as Down Under?

                          Mike G.
                          *Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator
                        • Rick Hubbard
                          ... [||] Based on my experience with multiple key combinations it **should** stand for Grrrrr Rick
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 2, 2010
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                            Mike asked:
                            ||<snip>. OK, but what does 'Gr'
                            ||stand for? That's what I'd like to know, mates.
                            [||]

                            Based on my experience with multiple key combinations it **should** stand
                            for "Grrrrr"

                            Rick
                          • Rick Hubbard
                            Hi Mike- I found the list of letters not appearing with a superlinear in Layton s Coptic on 20 Lessons (p3). ⲁ, ⲇ, ⲉ, ⲍ, ⲏ, ⲑ, ⲓ, ⲟ, ⲩ, ⲫ,
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 2, 2010
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                              Hi Mike-

                               

                              I found the list of letters not appearing with a superlinear in Layton's Coptic on 20 Lessons (p3).

                              ⲁ, ⲇ, ⲉ, ⲍ, ⲏ, ⲑ, ⲓ, ⲟ, ⲩ, ⲫ, ⲭ,  ⲱ never appear with their own superlinear, according to him. Now, as you point out,  that does not mean that they are never part of entire bound forms that have a joining overstrokes (a different thing, grammatically) and which can be handled separately by inserting the overstroke between the characters as in with shift+a in the Askeland KB so that they appear as a single line. But then again, if you use this keyboard, freeing up keys doesn’t really make much difference in the long run.

                               

                              Rick

                               

                               

                              ||-----Original Message-----

                              ||From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On

                              ||Behalf Of Michael Grondin

                              ||Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 2:10 AM

                              ||To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com

                              ||Subject: Re: [GTh] Coptic Keyboarding

                              ||

                              ||

                              ||

                              ||Rick wrote:

                              ||> One more thing I'm curious about. Layton (somewhere) has a list of the

                              ||> glyphs that **never** have their own superlinear, so having the shift

                              ||> superlinear function would not be necessary for all letters- that

                              ||> would free up some keys, right? Or am I missing something here?

                              ||

                              ||Well, I guess I would say 'yes and no'. True, there's some letters that don't

                              ||normally get their own superlinear stroke, but yet may need to be overlined on

                              ||occasion. One example is Greek numbers (which the Copts used, as you know,

                              ||and which were, of course, composed of overlined letters). Another is nomina

                              ||sacra. Less obviously, there's those strange "names" associated with body parts

                              ||in the Apocryphon of John, where the whole lengthy "name" is overlined.

                              ||

                              ||Still, most of the letters are rarely overlined, so the idea makes sense to me. I

                              ||assume you're thinking of the possibility of freeing up some upper-case keys on

                              ||the Mastronarde keyboard so that the ctrl-alt function could be eliminated?

                              ||

                              ||Mike

                              ||

                              ||

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