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Horner and the Disappearance of Bibliacoptica.com

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  • Michael Grondin
    Back on Feb 23rd, April DeConick posted this blog entry: http://forbiddengospels.blogspot.com/2010/02/horners-coptic-new-testament-now.html It was about the
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 20, 2010
      Back on Feb 23rd, April DeConick posted this blog entry:

      http://forbiddengospels.blogspot.com/2010/02/horners-coptic-new-testament-now.html

      It was about the availability of a printed edition of G.W.Horner's
      Coptic New Testament, originally published in the early 1900's,
      but still the only authoritative edition as far as I know. Anyway,
      among the comments on the blog entry was that of James McGrath,
      who pointed to a free online version of Horner's available at
      http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=horner%20coptic.
      But as Judy Redman and another writer pointed out, volume 1
      (of 7) of the Southern Dialect (i.e., Sahidic) is missing.

      The final comment on the above blog entry mentioned another
      possibility for getting Horner's online, namely bibliacoptica.com.
      Indeed, I had a link to that site on my links page, which link I think
      I had added before April's posting, though I haven't been able to
      verify that. In any case, bibliacoptica.com is no more. In response
      to my inquiry, Hany Takla informed me that he believes that the
      managers of the site opted for selling the books as opposed to
      making them available online for free. There was other stuff on
      the site, however, and that's gone as well.

      I might just add that when bibliacoptica was still active, I contacted
      the site-owners to find out who they were - since they didn't identify
      themselves anywhere on the site. They were reluctant to do that,
      however, so I don't know to this day who was behind the site. Nor
      have I been able to locate an old copy of it at archive.org.

      For my purposes (mostly searching), the best resource is still
      the Coptic New Testament CD put out by Hany Takla's group:
      http://www.stshenouda.com/society/copticcd.htm

      Including a lexicon and other stuff, it's a steal at $25.

      Mike Grondin
    • Tim Ricchuiti
      If you re just looking for the Sahidic Coptic NT, I would recommend Sahidica , J. Warren Wells update of Horner. It s available
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 20, 2010
        If you're just looking for the Sahidic Coptic NT, I would recommend Sahidica, J. Warren Wells update of Horner. It's available free in PDF form, and can also be purchased for Accordance and Bibleworks (for purchase, it comes along with some other texts).

        Tim Ricchuiti
      • Michael Grondin
        Tim, Thanks for your pointer to the work of J.W.Wells at sahidica.warpco.com. I intend to add that to my links. I ve done some preliminary investigation and
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 20, 2010
          Tim,
           
          Thanks for your pointer to the work of J.W.Wells at sahidica.warpco.com.
          I intend to add that to my links. I've done some preliminary investigation
          and find some interesting comments on the interplay of various versions
          of the Coptic NT text. As I understand it, the initial source of Wells' work
          was a version prepared at Yale (with the participation of Bentley Layton)
          for the Packard Humanities Institute (PHI). The impetus for the PHI version
          appears to have been disatisfaction with the Horner version. Wells writes:
           
          > The need for a new edition of the Sahidic New Testament has long been recognized;
          > especially by textual scholars. At the time of this writing, the only available print version
          > of the complete Sahidic New Testament is George Horner's seven volume edition
          > released from 1898 through 1905. Kurt and Barbara Aland point out that "Horner pieced
          > together his edition of the Sahidic New Testament from isolated fragments, producing a
          > text with extensive lacunae." They add that the edition is now "antiquated."
           
          At the end of this piece, Wells adds:
          "After the initial edition of Sahidica had been completed, I learned of the
          existance of another Coptic CD. The CD is (at the time of this writing)
          available from the Saint Shenouda the Archimandrite Coptic Society in
          Los Angeles, California. The price of the CD when I purchased it was $50
          US. The fact that the Sahidic NT on the CD was in PDF format allowed me
          to double check my work at that time. After temporarily reducing the PDF
          text to a binary form, I was able to compare the entire Sahidica, PHI, and
          Coptic Society texts in parallel and letter by letter. This allowed me to isolate
          all the differences in the three texts and correct mistakes where they could
          be identified as compared with the Coptic printed editions used in the collation."
          ... [Note: I also paid $50 for it, but it's now listed for $25 - MWG]
           
          Additional light is shed on the situation by an online essay with the lengthy
          title "A Few Notes Concerning Mr. Joseph Warren Wells' Edition of the
          Sahidic and Bohairic Texts of the New Testament", by Gary Dykes:
          (Although the formality of the title might be taken to suggest a negative
          report, Dykes is actually quite complimentary of Wells' work.)
           
          Finally, I found this about the PHI product in question:
          "PHI currently offers two CD ROMs of classical texts: ...
          PHI CD #7 ("Greek Documentary", issued 1997) contains (1) documentary
          papyri prepared at Duke University with the help of the University of
          Michigan; (2) Greek inscriptions prepared at Cornell, Ohio State
          University, et al.; and (3) a Coptic New Testament prepared at Yale
          and the Nag Hammadi texts as prepared at the University of Claremont."

          Of course, what struck me was that the CD contains not only a version
          of the Coptic NT, but the Nag Hammadi texts as well - presumably in
          Coptic. That might be a fine searching tool. (Remember some time
          back when we were looking for the occurrence of a certain word and
          Rick had to manually check umpteen indices in printed works?) From
          what I gather, the CD is free if one goes about requesting it in the right
          way. I haven't figured out what that way is yet.
           
          All this having been written, it suddenly occurred to me that I had been
          forgetting about Marcion:
          That system is free and it also includes both the Coptic NT and the Nag
          Hammadi texts. I don't know what version of the Coptic NT it uses, or where
          its NH texts came from, and it sounds pretty complicated to use (Judy
          Redman has a couple three postings on her blog about that), but maybe
          that's the way to go if one is, like me, interested primarily in searchability.
          (Whether or not one is able to display both the Coptic and the English on
          the same page, as with the St. Shenouda CD, is however unknown to me.
          I guess I need to do some actual work. Ugh. :-)

          Mike Grondin
          Mt. Clemens, MI
        • Michael Grondin
          Further information on the relationship between the Takla and Wells versions of the Coptic NT has been provided to me by Hany Takla in off-list email. I had
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 23, 2010
            Further information on the relationship between the Takla and
            Wells versions of the Coptic NT has been provided to me by
            Hany Takla in off-list email. I had sent him a copy of my last list
            note on the subject, and wrote to him as follows:

            "I thought you might be interested in the following note that I sent to
            my GThomas list yesterday, especially since your name came into
            it. If you have any observations on any of the issues discussed here,
            I'd love to hear them. (I won't pass them along to the list unless you
            give your permission to do so.)"

            Hany's response was as follows:

            "In explanation I would like to add that the Coptic CD that was initially
            distributed by the Society had four modules of my own work that included
            a Course in Bohairic with recorded pronunciation, Bohairic-English
            Dictionary, An Annual Lectionary of the Feasts in the Coptic Church, and
            the Coptic New Testament. Since we exhausted the stock of this CD, the
            first two modules were licensed to COEPA organization in Australia to
            distribute with one of their electronic products. The New Testament CD
            became a separate CD and was distributed for a reduced price when
            ordered as you have seen. As you know the Sahidic Text was based on
            the latest complete texts published after Horner's edition. I added the
            superlineal strokes and changed the word division to better serve the
            grammatical meaning. However, despite many reviews there were multiple
            typos. J. Warren Wells was good enough to correct many if not all these
            typos in his produced text.

            "Currently I set up for the Society a subscription site
            (http://demo.stshenouda.info/tc.htm) that houses all the separate files for
            the New Testament that were on the CD plus all the periodicals that the
            Society has issued or are currently issued along with contents of some of
            our library holdings and our own manuscript collection. With regards to the
            New Testament I will be making corrections to the texts periodically and
            post them. Also I am planning to release some of the Old Testament Texts
            that I have done from either published sources or manuscript copies in the
            Microform library of the Society. This information can be distributed as
            you see fit. Take care."

            I have expressed my thanks to Hany for sharing this information with us.

            Mike Grondin
            Mt. Clemens, MI
          • Rick Hubbard
            Thanks Mike for digging into this. On two or three occasions I have gone to the St Shenouda site at http://www.stshenouda.com/society/copticcd.htm to order the
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 24, 2010
              Thanks Mike for digging into this. On two or three occasions I have gone to
              the St Shenouda site at http://www.stshenouda.com/society/copticcd.htm to
              order the Coptic NT CD and every time was unsuccessful when I clicked the
              "Submit" button (got the dreaded "Page No Found" message.

              As an alternative I downloaded the Sahidica material but I'm not too keen on
              the font used with it. As far as the Marcion product I agree with other
              observations that it is simply too cumbersome to be workable.

              But back to the Takla resource: Is the material offered there (via
              subscription) searchable? What is the format like (presumably all the
              strokes are there)?

              Rick
              ||-----Original Message-----
              ||From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On
              ||Behalf Of Michael Grondin
              ||Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 3:40 PM
              ||To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              ||Subject: Re: [GTh] Horner and the Disappearance of Bibliacoptica.com
              ||
              ||
              ||
              ||Further information on the relationship between the Takla and Wells
              versions of
              ||the Coptic NT has been provided to me by Hany Takla in off-list email. I
              had
              ||sent him a copy of my last list note on the subject, and wrote to him as
              follows:
              ||
              ||"I thought you might be interested in the following note that I sent to my
              ||GThomas list yesterday, especially since your name came into it. If you
              have
              ||any observations on any of the issues discussed here, I'd love to hear
              them. (I
              ||won't pass them along to the list unless you give your permission to do
              so.)"
              ||
              ||Hany's response was as follows:
              ||
              ||"In explanation I would like to add that the Coptic CD that was initially
              ||distributed by the Society had four modules of my own work that included a
              ||Course in Bohairic with recorded pronunciation, Bohairic-English
              Dictionary, An
              ||Annual Lectionary of the Feasts in the Coptic Church, and the Coptic New
              ||Testament. Since we exhausted the stock of this CD, the first two modules
              were
              ||licensed to COEPA organization in Australia to distribute with one of
              their
              ||electronic products. The New Testament CD became a separate CD and was
              ||distributed for a reduced price when ordered as you have seen. As you know
              ||the Sahidic Text was based on the latest complete texts published after
              Horner's
              ||edition. I added the superlineal strokes and changed the word division to
              better
              ||serve the grammatical meaning. However, despite many reviews there were
              ||multiple typos. J. Warren Wells was good enough to correct many if not all
              these
              ||typos in his produced text.
              ||
              ||"Currently I set up for the Society a subscription site
              ||(http://demo.stshenouda.info/tc.htm) that houses all the separate files
              for the
              ||New Testament that were on the CD plus all the periodicals that the
              Society has
              ||issued or are currently issued along with contents of some of our library
              ||holdings and our own manuscript collection. With regards to the New
              Testament
              ||I will be making corrections to the texts periodically and post them. Also
              I am
              ||planning to release some of the Old Testament Texts that I have done from
              ||either published sources or manuscript copies in the Microform library of
              the
              ||Society. This information can be distributed as you see fit. Take care."
              ||
              ||I have expressed my thanks to Hany for sharing this information with us.
              ||
              ||Mike Grondin
              ||Mt. Clemens, MI
              ||
              ||
              ||
              ||
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