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RE: {Disarmed} [GTh] Correlation Query

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  • Richard Hubbard
    Hi Bruce- While it isn t a list in the conventional sense of the word, his treatment of parallels in Ancient Christian Gospels (p 49ff) would probably be
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 3, 2010
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      Hi Bruce-

      While it isn't a "list" in the conventional sense of the word, his
      treatment of parallels in Ancient Christian Gospels (p 49ff) would
      probably be definitive of his assessment.

      Rick Hubbard



      |-----Original Message-----
      |From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com]
      |Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:15 PM
      |To: Richard Hubbard; GThomas
      |Subject: {Disarmed} [GTh] Correlation Query
      |Importance: Low
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |To: GThomas
      |On: Correlation Query
      |From: Bruce
      |
      |All will know Stevan Davies' Gospel of Thomas Homepage, and some like
      myself
      |may have looked at the included Correlation Analysis of Thomas passages
      with their
      |counterparts in the Synoptic Gospels. If you missed that feature, here
      it is:
      |
      |[ http://users.misericordia.edu//davies/thomas/correl.htm
      |]http://users.misericordia.edu//davies/thomas/correl.htm
      |
      |It is based on a "recent list" of Thomas-Synoptic parallels "compiled
      by Helmut
      |Koester." Being curious to see that list, I asked Stevan for a
      reference, only to find
      |that he does not now recall the source. Before I bother Professor
      Koester (my first
      |impulse), does any GThomas member happen to know where the Koester list
      can be
      |found?
      |
      |Thanks,
      |
      |Bruce
      |
      |E Bruce Brooks
      |Warring States Project
      |University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      |
      |
      |
      |
    • E Bruce Brooks
      Rick, Thanks for the helpful suggestion. It turns out to be not quite the list that Steven had in mind. Early Christian Gospels p108 gives a list of Mark and
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 3, 2010
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        Rick,

        Thanks for the helpful suggestion. It turns out to be not quite the list
        that Steven had in mind. Early Christian Gospels p108 gives a list of Mark
        and Thomas correspondences, and proceeds to discuss them. There are exactly
        28 of them, and the following discussion seems to stay within those limits.
        Stevan, in his Correlation page, mentions instead a list of 100, with
        another 10 described as "dubious."

        So I guess I am still open to suggestions.

        While I have Ancient Christian Gospels open, I notice that on p87f is a list
        of "Q and Thomas" parallels. Of these there are 46 (counting doublets as 1),
        or 6 more than the list at the end of Kloppenborg et all, "The Q-Thomas
        Reader." It will at once be asked, are those two lists identical except that
        QTR has fewer, or are there differences beyond this?

        I could answer that question faster if the two lists were comparable, but
        they're not; Koester is in Q/Lk order, and QTR (Kloppenborg et al) is in
        GThos order. It will take me a while to work it out. But if anyone would
        like to see the results, let me know.

        Meanwhile, I notice that Koester p87 footnotes Crossan, Sayings Parallels: A
        Workbook for the Jesus Tradition. I don't have this book. Is it possible
        that this Koester reference, and not Koester himself, was the source of the
        100 (or 110) member Mk/GThos list that Stevan used as his computational
        basis?

        Perhaps someone who owns that book would like to check.

        Thanks in advance,

        Bruce

        E Bruce Brooks
        Warring States Project
        University of Massachusetts at Amherst
      • Michael Grondin
        ... I don t have the Crossan book either, but the numbers 100/110 are synoptic parallels, not Markan parallels. Furthermore, from other Crossan writings, it
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 3, 2010
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          > ... I notice that Koester p87 footnotes Crossan, Sayings Parallels: A
          > Workbook for the Jesus Tradition. I don't have this book. Is it possible
          > that this Koester reference, and not Koester himself, was the source of
          > the 100 (or 110) member Mk/GThos list that Stevan used as his
          > computational basis?

          I don't have the Crossan book either, but the numbers 100/110 are
          synoptic parallels, not Markan parallels. Furthermore, from other Crossan
          writings, it might be inferred that these aren't whole sayings, but rather
          parts of sayings, which number in total (paralleled and not) somewhere
          around 145, as I recall.

          Mike G.
        • E Bruce Brooks
          Mike, Thanks for the clarification; that does indeed make things fit a little better. Koester s various sets of parallels are given in difficult form, and some
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 3, 2010
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            Mike,

            Thanks for the clarification; that does indeed make things fit a little
            better. Koester's various sets of parallels are given in difficult form, and
            some of his lists overlap, so again I can't report a total number right
            offhand. But it looks promising. If the source was in fact Koester's Ancient
            Christian Gospels, and if his sublists were combined, and if his doublets
            were uncombined and listed twice and not just once, we might be getting up
            around a hundred. Stevan, if you are listening, does this sound at all
            familiar?

            Bruce

            E Bruce Brooks
            Warring States Project
            University of Massachusetts at Amherst



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Michael Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
            To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 3:53 PM
            Subject: Re: {Disarmed} [GTh] Correlation Query


            >> ... I notice that Koester p87 footnotes Crossan, Sayings Parallels: A
            >> Workbook for the Jesus Tradition. I don't have this book. Is it possible
            >> that this Koester reference, and not Koester himself, was the source of
            >> the 100 (or 110) member Mk/GThos list that Stevan used as his
            >> computational basis?
            >
            > I don't have the Crossan book either, but the numbers 100/110 are
            > synoptic parallels, not Markan parallels. Furthermore, from other Crossan
            > writings, it might be inferred that these aren't whole sayings, but rather
            > parts of sayings, which number in total (paralleled and not) somewhere
            > around 145, as I recall.
            >
            > Mike G.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
            > Interlinear translation: http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
            > Related Biblioblogs:
            > PEJE IESOUS (Chris Skinner) http://pejeiesous.com
            > Judy's Research Blog (Judy Redman) http://judyredman.wordpress.com
            > The Forbidden Gospels (April DeConick)
            > http://forbiddengospels.blogspot.com
            > ------------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Rick Hubbard
            ... A ... that this ... [||] I just did a quick check of the index in Crossan s book you mention. The total number of correlations between GTh and his data
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 3, 2010
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              Bruce wrote:
              ||
              ||Meanwhile, I notice that Koester p87 footnotes Crossan, Sayings Parallels:
              A
              ||Workbook for the Jesus Tradition. I don't have this book. Is it possible
              that this
              ||Koester reference, and not Koester himself, was the source of the
              ||100 (or 110) member Mk/GThos list that Stevan used as his computational
              ||basis?
              [||]
              I just did a quick check of the index in Crossan's book you mention. The
              total number of correlations between GTh and his data base of Jesus sayings
              totals 186!

              Anyone care to bid 200?


              Rick Hubbard
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