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Re: [GTh] Greek vs Coptic Thomas

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  • kurt31416
    Fascinating discussion. Real evidence, not angels dancing on pins. One thing rarely pointed out is that from the perspective of picking kernels out of the
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 20, 2010
      Fascinating discussion. Real evidence, not angels dancing on pins.

      One thing rarely pointed out is that from the perspective of picking "kernels" out of the Coptic Thomas, things deleted from the Greek don't matter (much).

      In other words, looking at the Coptic and trying to decide if it was in early manuscripts, all that matters is what the Coptics added.

      And in the 14 sayings sufficiently complete to judge, the Coptics only added complete sentences (and significant changes) in two places. Saying 28(P.Oxy.1) and Saying 37(P.Oxy.655). And in both cases, sentences at the end (as one might expect.)

      Color coded, side by side...
      http://www.kingdomofthefather.com/Greek-Coptic.html

      Not a large sample, but the most probable case is that in the 114-14=100 Coptic sayings not matched by the Greek, 2/14 will have sentences added at the end.

      In other words, about 14 of the Coptic sayings not matched by the Greek, we can expect sentences added at the end not being in the Greek version. Could be 5 could be 20, could be a few added at the beginning, but that's about the only hard evidence we have.

      Richard Van Vliet
    • Michael Grondin
      ... In case it hasn t so far been clear, the answer to this question is no . There is no valid basis for this speculation, neither in the Greek (see Ian
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 20, 2010
        Maurice wrote:

        > Could it thus be that the translator of Coptic Thomas is not
        > simply translating a Greek document into Coptic, but that he
        > is recasting the timeframe of the document which he is copying
        > from in order to meet certain chronological realities or dogma
        > of his own (later) times ?

        In case it hasn't so far been clear, the answer to this question
        is "no". There is no valid basis for this speculation, neither in the
        Greek (see Ian Brown's response) nor in the Coptic (see SQL
        and _The Fifth Gospel_ for notes on the translation of 'peje'.)
        This is just another case where reasoning from English
        translations alone leads one astray.

        Mike G.
      • Michael Grondin
        ... This analysis is flawed by being based on translations alone. When the manuscripts are taken into account, a different picture emerges, because there are
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 22, 2010
          > ... in the 14 sayings sufficiently complete to judge, the [Copts]
          > only added complete sentences (and significant changes) in
          > two places. Saying 28 (P.Oxy.1) and Saying 37 (P.Oxy.655).
          > And in both cases, sentences at the end (as one might expect.)

          This analysis is flawed by being based on translations alone.
          When the manuscripts are taken into account, a different picture
          emerges, because there are portions of the fragments which
          can't be reliably reconstructed. These lacunae don't show up
          in translations, but they had something in them.

          Saying 37 is a case in point. According to Layton's presentation
          in the Brill Nag Hammadi series, saying 37 occupies about 15
          lines, but only the first 7 are visible. That means that much of
          L.37 is missing in the Greek - and doesn't show up in translation,
          of course. But there was something there; we just don't know
          what is was. So it seems that we can't draw any reliable conclusions
          about the relationship between the Greek and Coptic versions.

          The case of L.28 is different, but has its own oddities. If I read
          Layton's presentation correctly, L.28 begins at the bottom half
          of the front side of P.Oxy. 1 and seems to end at the top of the
          obverse side. Problem is, though, that there doesn't appear to
          be enough space there for even the beginning of L.29. Perhaps
          Tim Ricchuiti can clarify the situation, but I note for starters that
          Tim's pdf doesn't show a Coptic addition on the end of either
          L.28 or L.37, and I assume he has good reasons for that.

          Mike G.
        • kurt31416
          ... looking at the best copy of POxy1 I have... http://www.kingdomofthefather.com/POxy1.html ...it sure doesn t look like there s a trace of a continuation of
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 22, 2010
            ... looking at the best copy of POxy1 I have...
            http://www.kingdomofthefather.com/POxy1.html
            ...it sure doesn't look like there's a trace of a continuation of #28

            And it's absolutely certain, if I had a high resolution scan of it, one you could do with a cheap PC and put on the internet for free, I would be able to tell you for a fact if there was writing there at one time.

            If such a thing exists, I'd sure like to get my hands on it. If it doesn't exist, shame on those that made that decision.

            There's a way to make progress,
            Richard Van Vliet
          • Michael Grondin
            ... You re right that there s a mystery or two there. The first is that there s no trace in the image of the end of L.28 and the beginning of L.29. But there s
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 23, 2010
              > ... looking at the best copy of POxy1 I have...
              > http://www.kingdomofthefather.com/POxy1.html
              > ...it sure doesn't look like there's a trace of a continuation of #28

              You're right that there's a mystery or two there. The first is that
              there's no trace in the image of the end of L.28 and the beginning
              of L.29. But there's also the question of where line 21 came from.
              The last thing that can be seen on the image of the front of POxy 1
              is line 20, ending with KAR, the beginning of the word KARDIA (heart).
              But Harold Attridge, who edited the Greek fragments in Layton's book,
              and others like Andrew Bernhard and Tim Ricchuiti (who may or may
              not have been simply following Attridge) have somehow been able to
              discern most of the letters of a line 21 below that. At least, that's the
              implication of the fact that most of what they show as line 21 isn't
              enclosed in brackets (any material not enclosed in brackets being
              supposed to be visible). I can't find any explanation for this anomaly.
              Hopefully, one of our Greek folks will speak up, if only to say that
              they have no explanation either.

              Mike G.
            • Richard Hubbard
              ... there s no trace in the ... the question of ... line 20, ending ... Well, at least I m not the only one who can t see line 21. My eyes aren t what they
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 23, 2010
                Mike wrote:

                |You're right that there's a mystery or two there. The first is that
                there's no trace in the
                |image of the end of L.28 and the beginning of L.29. But there's also
                the question of
                |where line 21 came from.
                |The last thing that can be seen on the image of the front of POxy 1 is
                line 20, ending
                |with KAR, the beginning of the word KARDIA (heart).

                Well, at least I'm not the only one who can't see line 21. My eyes
                aren't what they used to be, I'll concede but I'm a long way from being
                blind (except perhaps "in my heart", as line 21 has been reconstructed).
                I did, however take a closer look at the image this morning (the
                colorized one) by blowing it up to 400%. It looks to me like I can see
                just the faintest trace underneath the iota in the first word in line 20
                that **looks** like it could be the right side of an alpha (which would
                be consistent with the restoration of the line that begins with DIA
                AUTWN).

                I suppose one plausible explanation is that the bottom of the papyrus
                has eroded between the time of its earliest collation and the time this
                picture was taken and since then editors have simply followed the
                original restored reading (Grenfell Hunt? Ca. 1897).

                The other possibility, less likely IMO, is that the Greek was restored
                based on the Coptic reading NHC II,2 38:25-26

                Rick Hubbard
              • Michael Grondin
                ... My first response to this remark of Rick V s was inadequate, since I failed to take account of Attridge s Introduction to the Greek fragments in Layton s
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 23, 2010
                  > ... looking at the best copy of POxy1 I have...
                  > http://www.kingdomofthefather.com/POxy1.html
                  > ...it sure doesn't look like there's a trace of a continuation of #28

                  My first response to this remark of Rick V's was inadequate,
                  since I failed to take account of Attridge's Introduction to the
                  Greek fragments in Layton's book. It doesn't solve the mystery
                  of line 21, but it does address the missing portions of L28 & 29:

                  "Both sides [of P.Oxy.1] now contain twenty-one lines ... but
                  the bottom half of the page, which must have contained another
                  sixteen lines or so, is wanting." (Layton, NHC II, 2-7, p.97)

                  Mike G.
                • Rick Hubbard
                  FWIW, I turned up Grenfell and Hunt s reconstruction of P Oxy 1 ( LOGIA IHSOU: Sayings of or Lord , Frowde: 1897). Here is the note on line 21 from that
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 23, 2010
                    FWIW, I turned up Grenfell and Hunt's reconstruction of P Oxy 1 ("LOGIA
                    IHSOU: Sayings of or Lord", Frowde: 1897). Here is the note on line 21 from
                    that publication (p 12):

                    "Of the **latter half** [my emphasis] of l. 21 only very faint vestiges
                    remain. At the end of it the horizontal stroke which looks like the top of S
                    might only be part of a long cross bar of E; and the dot which is
                    discernable before this stroke, and which could doubtless have transcribed
                    as I could be the bottom of a long P (Rho) in the previous line."

                    These remarks seem to reinforce the possibility I mentioned earlier that the
                    bottom of the papyrus deteriorated between the time of its
                    discovery/publication and the time the photographic image was made. In
                    addition G-H's critical rendering of line 21 is virtually the same as that
                    in B. Layton (by H. Attridge), viz:

                    DIA AUTW[N] KAI [..] BLEIS- (with AI, L, E and s marked as questionable).

                    Attridge (in 1989) represents "[..]" as "[OU]" and emends BLEIS to BLEP the
                    same as J. Fitzmyer (Essays on the Semitic Background of the New Testament
                    SP, 1974, p.394), so somewhere between 1897 and 1974 it appears that [OU]
                    became an acceptable conjecture (I have a hunch it was first proposed by F.
                    Cross in 1897 suggested in Hugh Evelyn White (The sayings of Jesus from
                    Oxyrhynchus [Cambridge University Press, 1920, p.32 n2), but so far I
                    haven't been able to work through his references.

                    Rick Hubbard

                    ||-----Original Message-----
                    ||From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On
                    ||Behalf Of Michael Grondin
                    ||Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 7:32 PM
                    ||To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                    ||Subject: Re: [GTh] Greek vs Coptic Thomas
                    ||
                    ||
                    ||
                    ||> ... looking at the best copy of POxy1 I have...
                    ||> http://www.kingdomofthefather.com/POxy1.html
                    ||> ...it sure doesn't look like there's a trace of a continuation of #28
                    ||
                    ||My first response to this remark of Rick V's was inadequate, since I
                    failed to
                    ||take account of Attridge's Introduction to the Greek fragments in Layton's
                    book.
                    ||It doesn't solve the mystery of line 21, but it does address the missing
                    portions
                    ||of L28 & 29:
                    ||
                    ||"Both sides [of P.Oxy.1] now contain twenty-one lines ... but the bottom
                    half of
                    ||the page, which must have contained another sixteen lines or so, is
                    wanting."
                    ||(Layton, NHC II, 2-7, p.97)
                    ||
                    ||Mike G.
                    ||
                    ||
                    ||
                    ||
                  • Adrian
                    Given that we are only missing the latter half of line 21, and the lion s share of line 1 on the reverse, there is hardly enough space to complete Logion 28
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 24, 2010
                      Given that we are only missing the latter half of line 21, and the lion's share of line 1 on the reverse, there is hardly enough space to complete Logion 28 and begin Logion 29 as represented in our Coptic version.
                      The simpliest explanation may be that the ending for Logion 28 in the P.Oxy. 1 version was the last clause of we know as Logion 29 from NH version, and did not represent the last 5 clauses of the NH ending of Logion 28 (at this point in the P.Oxy. 1 version anyway).

                      Here is one possible reconstruction of P.Oxy. 1 (Logion 28 ending):

                      line 21 -earts and they do not see, yet I marvel at how
                      line 1 this great wealth came to dwell in this poverty.

                      This has some cohesive properties not present in the NH version, such as the contrast between 'my heart aches' and 'yet i marvel'.

                      Adrian Millar
                    • Michael Grondin
                      ... Hi Adrian, The test of this would be to see if the Greek would work out, but I m inclined to agree with Attridge et al that the bottom portion of the page
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 25, 2010
                        > Here is one possible reconstruction of P.Oxy. 1 (Logion 28 ending):
                        > line 21 -earts and they do not see, yet I marvel at how
                        > line 1 this great wealth came to dwell in this poverty.

                        Hi Adrian,
                        The test of this would be to see if the Greek would work out, but
                        I'm inclined to agree with Attridge et al that the bottom portion
                        of the page is missing. In fact, it appears to this untrained
                        eye that the page was torn. The bottom edge is rather jagged,
                        with extended fibers, unlike the edges I've seen which were
                        worn away by the normal processes of time. It was originally
                        part of a codex, BTW, so given its separation from the original
                        codex and its presence in a garbage dump, I think it's safe to
                        assume an ancient attempt to destroy. Tearing the page in half
                        would be a natural part of that. As to the appearance of the edge,
                        my guess is that when one tries to tear a piece of papyrus in half,
                        its overlapping fiber construction causes a jagged tear rather
                        than a clean one, but that's only an untrained guess, mind you.
                        Jack Kilmon could tell us, if he's still listening in.
                        Mike G.
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