Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [GTh] Re: Probability of No Mark Parallels for 29 Sayings in Thomas

Expand Messages
  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: kurt31416 Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 6:50 PM To: Subject: [GTh] Re: Probability of No Mark
    Message 1 of 56 , May 3, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      --------------------------------------------------
      From: "kurt31416" <kurt31416@...>
      Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 6:50 PM
      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [GTh] Re: Probability of No Mark Parallels for 29 Sayings in Thomas

      > Hi Jack,
      >
      > Stupid question. How come there's virtually no Mark/John sayings
      > parallels, never more than 2 in a row, then all of a sudden, there's 10 in
      > a row, from the Last Supper to the end of Mark? All of a sudden, it's the
      > same Jesus talking. (J.S. Five Gospels data)
      >
      > And, of course, all the Thomas parallels clustered in the first part.
      >
      > Why would Mark's Thomas saying list only be at the beginning of Mark, and
      > why are all the sayings in Mark from the Last Supper to the end, (none of
      > which is in Thomas) also in John?
      >
      > Rick Van Vliet

      John 21 may have been the original ending of Mark.

      Mark anticipates a first resurrection appearance in Galilee and John 21
      without the "third appearance" editorial insert at 21:14 is that first
      appearance.
      In Mark, Peter denies Jesus three times (14:67-72). In John (21:15-17),
      Peter affirms his love three times....the pro-Petrine redemption anticipated
      in Mark. This completes what form critics have come to recognize as Markan
      brackets (like the bracketed blind men at 8:22 and 10:46). In Mark, the
      shepherd is struck down and the sheep scattered. In John 21 Peter becomes
      the new shepherd..completing another incomplete Markan bracket. In Mark,
      the first words spoken to a disciple are "follow me." In John 21 the LAST
      words spoken are "follow me" (Jn 21:22) completing another Markan bracket.

      If John 21 was originally the first resurrection appearance account of the
      ending of Mark, Mark would become unified literarily if the appendage is
      restored to Mark..less a few Johannine phrases. It does. As an Aramaicist,
      I am, to the point of annoyance to some, the "follow the Aramaic" guy and
      also find support in this from Burney. If John 21 was removed from Mark,
      edited with a few Johannine signature phrases, we should see typically
      Markan Aramaisms noted in Mark and John with none or little in Matthew and
      Luke. I find this in Mark's frequent use of the historic present resulting
      from Aramaic narrative participle also frequent in John 21. There is also
      a connection between John and Mark's use of imperfects, the rare use of de
      and frequent use of kai, the partitive APO in 21:10 used by Mark at 5:35,
      6:43, 7:4 and 12:2.

      Jack

      Jack Kilmon
      San Antonio, TX
    • ronmccann1@shaw.ca
      Hi Jack, Sorry you are feeling poorly. Hope you feel better soon. Whatever the outcome of these discussions, I just wanted to say that I much admire the fact
      Message 56 of 56 , May 7, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Jack,
         
        Sorry you are feeling poorly. Hope you feel better soon.
         
        Whatever the outcome of these discussions, I just wanted to say that I much admire the fact that, as a historian, you picked up two historical references to two very, very early Chritian documents in Papias (The Matthean Logia and Mark's Notes) and have proposed that one was our Book of Q and the other the Gospel of Thomas.
        Quite an original idea, and well worth exploring.
        It's been been both interesting and stimulating trying to test out your intriguing proposal.
        Thanks.
         
        When you get back to this, I have a question.- Since the Matthean Logia is said to have been written down in Aramaic (actually, Papais calls it "Hebrew".) wouldn't back translating the Q parallel sayings in Thomas not also yield the sort of results you've found in the Markan sayings?
         
        Best Regards,
         
        Ron McCann
        Sasakatoon, Canada         PS Couldn't find a listing for a Kilmon in the phone book. Does yourr son go by a different name or like many of the younger set,  does he use only a cellphone?
         
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.