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Re: Inter-Christian Polemic in GJn?

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  • Paul Lanier
    ... Hi Chris, That may be true, but not in my case. My view on it came with reading Jn20 after joining this group. It just seemed obvious to me that the author
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 1, 2009
      --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "ravensschmavens" <christopherwskinner@...> wrote:
      >
      > I think many who have read Riley, Pagels, and others without significant consideration of the Fourth Gospel have come away convinced.

      Hi Chris,

      That may be true, but not in my case. My view on it came with reading Jn20 after joining this group. It just seemed obvious to me that the author devises Jn20 to bolster his authority over against that of Peter and Thomas. Certainly competitive authority is a common motif in most NT writings, and I see no reason to reject that exegetical approach here. Unless one is willing to argue that the account is historical, rather than simply polemical. I think that would be untenable in John, considering its lengthy speeches and very late composition.

      Pagels' case in Beyond Belief is outlined, rather than detailed, but I do agree with her conclusions on competition for doctrine between John's and Thomas's communities. I have not read Riley or anyone else on this. I long for the day when scholars publish all their works online for the purpose of open discussion (hint!).

      > I find some elements of the community-conflict hypothesis compelling but in the end I am not persuaded because of the consistent presentation of Johannine characters in a manner similar to the treatment Thomas receives.

      I do not see why this is a problem. I argue that Jn20-21 reflects historical competition between Petrine, Johannine, and Thomasine communities. I do not argue that no other competition existed. I would add that the author's criticism of Thomas centers on death/resurrection, and that this fits well with what we understand of original Thomas.

      > I think we tread on dangerous ground indeed when we approach the text of the Fourth Gospel with a view to mining the text for insights that will help us say something about a conflict that is (1) purely speculative, and (2) external to the Johannine narrative.

      I would argue that evidence-based inferences are far from speculation. A good example on this occurs in bridge. One mark of the expert is the ability to draw inferences and proceed accordingly. I hope we are not saying here that an informed inference is mere speculation!

      I would also note that any correct historical approach ought to be integrative. Thus an approach which seeks to understand the relationship of two communities will consider evidence of shared characteristics as well as those which are not shared.

      That being said, I respect your views and I look forward to seeing more detail from you!

      Regards, Paul
    • Michael Grondin
      ... Hi Paul, FWIW, I m in agreement with you, but let s be a little more specific. In chapter 20, the Peter-vs-BD stuff is in verses 2-20, and is
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 2, 2009
        > I argue that Jn20-21 reflects historical competition between
        > Petrine, Johannine, and Thomasine communities.

        Hi Paul,

        FWIW, I'm in agreement with you, but let's be a little more
        specific. In chapter 20, the Peter-vs-BD stuff is in verses
        2-20, and is self-contained. That is, if those verses were
        left out, and we imagine it jumping from verse 1 to verse 21,
        it would still read smoothly. More smoothly, in fact, because
        in verse 1, Mary comes to the tomb, and in verse 11
        she's standing outside it weeping. But if you add in
        verses 2-20, there's a narrative gap about how she got
        back there from verse 1 to verse 21.

        The anti-Thomas stuff is similarly self-contained, this time
        near the end of ch. 20, in verses 24-29. Verse 23 could easily
        be regarded as the end of a climactic appearance to the Twelve,
        with 30-31 tacked on to it directly (without the anti-Thomas stuff)
        as the probable end of the gospel at some earlier stage than
        now extant (ch.21 having been added later, as widely believed.)

        As far as chapter 21, there's more Peter-vs-BD stuff in
        there, but nothing anti-Thomas. So mentioning both chapters
        20 and 21, and both characters Peter and Thomas, in the
        same breath strikes me as a bit confusing. Furthermore,
        I'm not clear that one affects the other. That is to say, if
        Chris were to stipulate that there's a Peter-vs-BD polemic
        going on in chs. 20-21, what would follow from that about
        the anti-Thomas stuff in ch.20? Do you believe it would
        make Chris' position weaker, for example? If not, then
        maybe we should eliminate that part of the discussion?

        Regards,
        Mike G.
      • Paul Lanier
        Hi Mike, ... This is the first time I have heard that Jn20:2-20 may be a later addition. Of course that doesn t mean it cannot be! But I think going from 20:1
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 3, 2009
          Hi Mike,

          I have several responses:

          > That is, if those verses [Jn20:2-20] were left out, and we imagine it jumping from verse 1 to verse 21, it would still read smoothly.

          This is the first time I have heard that Jn20:2-20 may be a later addition. Of course that doesn't mean it cannot be! But I think going from 20:1 directly to 20:21 doesn't work for two reasons. One, the scene shifts from Mary to the disciples. Two, the characters shift from Mary Magdalene (alone) to Jesus with his disciples.

          There is, I think, a much more important reason for leaving chs 20-21 intact: it illustrates how the author harmonized earlier accounts and added his own. Note here how the author has added the presence of BD ("other disciple") in between the earlier accounts (also, the author does not mention Galilee as the place of meeting between Jesus and the Eleven). So chs.20-21 illustrate how the author establishes the authority of Nathanael/BD in Jerusalem while also trying to harmonize the synoptics. Mark originated the story of meeting in Galilee. That may have been because c.70 CE there were recent inhabitants of Jerusalem who would have challenged a resurrected Jesus in Jerusalem. But by the time Jn20 was composed, no eyewitness remained to challenge a risen Jesus in Jerusalem. Jn21 harmonizes the synoptic accounts of the meeting (Sea of Tiberias/Galilee).

          1Cor15.5-8
          Risen Christ appeared to Peter, then to the Twelve, then to over 500 brothers, then to James, then to all the Apostles, then to Paul.

          Mk16.1-8
          Mary Magdalene, Mary and Salome told by young man in white to tell disciples and Peter that Jesus is raised and will meet them in Galilee.

          Mt28.1-20
          Angel of the Lord announces to the two Marys that Jesus is risen. Jesus meets them, they take hold of his feet, and he instructs them to tell his brothers that he will meet them in Galilee. Jesus meets the Eleven in Galilee.

          Lk24.1-25
          Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, other women told by two dazzling men that Jesus is risen. The disciples do not believe them. Peter looks inside the empty tomb. Jesus appears disguised to Ceopas and another on the road to Emmaus. They tell disciples Jesus is risen, and has appeared to Peter. Jesus appears to The Eleven and eats a piece of broiled fish. Jesus leads them to Bethany, where he ascends.

          Mk16.9-20
          Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene (Mt). The disciples do not believe her (Lk). Then Jesus appears disguised to two disciples walking in the country (Lk), but the disciples do not believe them. Finally Jesus appears to the Eleven (Mt, Lk), then he ascends.

          Jn20
          Mary Magdalene reports empty tomb to Peter (Mk, Lk) and the Other Disciple. The Other Disciple outraces Peter but Peter enters first (Lk). At tomb, Mary meets two angels in white and Jesus (Mt). Jesus instructs Mary to tell his brothers (Mt) that he is ascending. Mary tells disciples (Mk, Mt, Lk). Jesus appears to disciples (minus Thomas) and gives them the Holy Spirit. Eight days later Jesus appears to all disciples (Lk), including Doubting Thomas.

          Jn21
          Jesus appears a third time to Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples (one of these seven is the Other Disciple) at the Sea of Tiberias. Jesus feeds them bread and broiled fish (Lk) from their catch.

          > As far as chapter 21, there's more Peter-vs-BD stuff in there, but nothing anti-Thomas.

          Because Thomas has been converted to "faith" and "belief" (20:28 "My Lord and my God!"). My speculation here is that by the time ch.21 was appended, the Johannine group had assimilated many from the Thomas community. So they are recognized by rank, between Peter and Nathanael.

          > So mentioning both chapters 20 and 21, and both characters Peter and Thomas, in the same breath strikes me as a bit confusing.

          Yes. Ch.21, "the appendix," is thought to be a later addition. Note the natural ending at 20:30-31 ("Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.") and the seam at 21:1 ("after this"). It appears the chief purpose of ch.21 is to rank the founders of various Jesus communities: Peter, Thomas, Nathanael/BD... Note Nathanael is not present in ch.20. Thomas, rehabilitated in ch.20, now ranks between Peter and Nathanael, although BD establishes his superior understanding over Peter at 21:7.


          > Do you believe it would make Chris' position weaker, for example?
          I think there may be a basic difference in methodology. I think considering John apart from any other writing robs it of any historical relevance – we know each NT author slanted or created accounts to favor developing doctrinal positions. But this knowledge comes only from analysis of differing or contradictory accounts among several texts. So disallowing this consideration would make it much more difficult to reconstruct histories of competing Jesus movements. Then again, maybe I misunderstand his position.

          Regards, Paul
        • Michael Grondin
          Hi Paul, If you don t mind, I think it best to forego a response to your analysis of the Peter-vs-BD stuff in GJn. As interesting is that is to me, our main
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 4, 2009
            Hi Paul,

            If you don't mind, I think it best to forego a response to your analysis
            of the Peter-vs-BD stuff in GJn. As interesting is that is to me, our main
            focus is the same as the focus of Chris' book, which is the analysis of
            the anti-Thomas stuff. With respect to that, I'm not sure that Chris would
            agree with you that there was a Thomas group in operation when GJn
            was written. Pending Chris' response, you might want to consider how
            you would go about proving that (although I'll stipulate to it here for the
            sake of seeing what inferences might follow from that assumption.)

            The question your analysis poses for me is whether, given that there
            was a Thomas group in existence as you surmise, does the different
            treatment of Thomas between Jn.20 and Jn.21 indicate that they (or
            some of them) had returned to the good graces of the Johannine
            group? Well, of course, it's always possible that some of them did,
            but it's apparent from all three Thomas writings that the group was in
            very strong disagreement with Johannine Christians in two areas:

            (1) That the resurrection wasn't "in the flesh"
            (2) That the death of Jesus didn't have the theological meaning
            that the Johannines ascribed to it.

            Based on the textual evidence of Thomasine writings, I'm not persuaded
            that the Thomas scene in Jn.20 accurately reflects historical reality. That
            is to say, I don't think that the bulk of the Thomasines (again, assuming
            that they were around then) DID come to accept the _physical_
            resurrection of Jesus. Rather, I think that it was a piece of wishful
            thinking on the part of the Johannines. Which is not to say that the
            Johannines never got the Thomasines to say "My Lord and my God!"
            about Jesus. Maybe they did, but that's a different matter, since even
            if the Thomasines had accepted such a declaration, their attitude toward
            physical bodies would have precluded them from associating such a
            declaration with a physical body, as John has them do in ch.20.

            If all this is so, then why the apparently-positive reference to Thomas
            in Jn.21? Well, I don't have a knock-down answer at the ready, but
            I think it may have something to do with the fact that the group that
            includes Thomas sets out to do some fishing. I'm serious. Mind you,
            it isn't normal fishing that's being referenced; rather, it's an allusion
            to missionary work - "fishing" for Christians, as it were. That given,
            the group of folks mentioned by name in 21:2 are apparently those
            Christians (or groups) that the Johannines believed to be or have
            been prominent in missionary work - whether in Judaea or elsewhere.
            (Though the Johannine redactors apparently tell these missionaries -
            through the character Jesus - where to "fish" for converts - off the
            "right side" of the boat - which may be a recommendation to seek
            recruits from Jews of the diaspora.)

            Regards, Mike
          • Michael Grondin
            Back on July 27th, when I introduced this topic, I quoted from Michael Bird s blog in parte in re Chris Skinner s book: In this volume Christopher Skinner
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 8, 2009
              Back on July 27th, when I introduced this topic, I quoted from
              Michael Bird's blog in parte in re Chris Skinner's book:

              "In this volume Christopher Skinner contests the notion that the Fourth
              Gospel was composed as a polemic against Thomasine Christians or
              the Gospel of Thomas due to certain readings of John 20.24-28 which
              are said to reflect [an] inter-community conflict."

              I didn't pay especially close attention to the wording of this sentence
              at the time, but some offlist discussions I've had since then have
              indicated that some clarification may be in order. As far as I know,
              no one has suggested that "the Fourth Gospel was composed as a
              polemic against Thomasine Christians or the Gospel of Thomas" if
              that means (as it seems to) that such a polemic was the primary or
              even a major reason for composing the Fourth Gospel. What Bird
              was apparently trying to say was that Riley et al have argued that
              Jn 20.24-28 (and a couple other verses, but certainly not the whole
              of the Fourth Gospel) was an anti-Thomasine polemic.

              What I'd recommend in this discussion is to drop the suggestion
              of a Thomasine community at the time of GJn. There's simply no
              evidence for that, and so Chris is quite right to call it 'speculation.'
              If that premise is insisted upon, we'll surely come to loggerheads
              before we even get started. The good news is that it isn't even
              logically necessary to establish or assume that. As I see it, the
              crux of the matter is the question of whether the attitudes and beliefs
              attributed to Thomas in GJn reflect Thomasine thinking, as evident
              in writings titled in that name. In this view, the real issue is whether
              Jn 20.24-28 may have been written with certain Christians (or
              Yeshuines, if you will) in mind whose theological ideas were similar
              to those in evidence within the Thomasine corpus (i.e., The Gospel,
              Book, and Acts of Thomas). To my mind, talk of a "Thomas
              Community" of the time just distracts attention from that issue.

              Cheers,
              Mike Grondin
            • jmgcormier
              In a recent post on the above subject, Mike Grondin makes reference to Michael Bird s Euangelion Blog wherein a commentary / summary is made of Christopher
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 11, 2009
                In a recent post on the above subject, Mike Grondin makes reference to Michael Bird's "Euangelion" Blog wherein a commentary / summary is made of Christopher Skinner's recent book "John & Thomas - Gospels in Conflict" ...

                Having said that, Bird's Blog also makes an interesting commentary / summary of yet another recently published book (called "The Gospel of Thomas: Original Text with Commentary" by Uwe-Karsten Plisch)which seems to make an interesting point about Thomas logion # 68 (one of my all time favorite seemingly muddled Thomasene sayings ...)The point made is that that "Plisch is very circumspect about dating and though he recognizes that logia 68 is post-Bar Kochba revolt etc, etc" ...)

                I, too, am very circumspect about dating and am left wondering if anyone on the list has read Plisch's book and might be kind enough to share the dating logics which lead the author to this conclusion about logion #68 postdating the Bar Kochba revolt. Indeed, as a late dater myself I agree with the conclusion but am lost as to how logion 68 can show support for this view.

                Coming back to logion 68 itself (Jesus said, "Blessed are you when you are hated and persecuted. Wherever you have been persecuted they will find no Place." ) and its seeming "muddledness", could anyone fluent / proficient in Coptic offer comments on the seemingly corrupt verb tenses in this logion and also corroborate if the oft translated word "wherever" might not better be translated as "whenever"... viz: the last sentence of the logion is not given in the same tense as the first sentence. That is, ("when you are hated" /present tense, or possibly in a figurative sense "future" tense) versus "you have been" persecuted (past tense) and they (unknown / the Romans / the persecuted ????) "will find" no place (future tense). Also, of particular interest, the "wherever" seems out of place, as the reader would seem to expect "whenever" instead (i.e. a "time" statement as opposed to a "place" statement.

                Is anyone else dumbfounded by these seeming anomalies ?

                Maurice ...
              • Michael Grondin
                Hi Maurice, I m not a Coptic expert, but I guess I m the closest thing we ve got to one here, so I ll try to clear up some of the questions you raise about
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 11, 2009
                  Hi Maurice,

                  I'm not a Coptic expert, but I guess I'm the closest thing we've got
                  to one here, so I'll try to clear up some of the questions you raise
                  about L.68. Let's start with the sentence you quoted from Bird:

                  "Plisch is very circumspect about dating and though he recognizes
                  that logia 68 is post-Bar Kochba revolt, it does not mean that the
                  whole document is."

                  Bird used the wrong word here. By saying that Plisch "recognizes" that
                  L.68 is post-Bar Kochba, he's implying that it's an agreed-upon fact
                  that L.68 is post-Bar Kochba. Of course, it's no such thing. According
                  to DeConick (TOGTT, p. 222 - get this book), H.M. Schenke believed
                  it to be so, but others - DeConick included - date it to the Jewish revolt
                  of the 60's, when the Christians fled to Pella. I think that the reason why
                  it's believed that L.68.2 is related to one of these two revolts is that
                  Jerusalem is assumed to be a place of persecution for Christians,
                  and in both revolts Jerusalem was left in ruins. After the Bar Kochba
                  revolt it was in fact renamed, and Jews were forbidden to enter it.
                  Perhaps that could be seen as favoring the later revolt, since there
                  was no longer any place called 'Jerusalem', but that hasn't settled
                  the issue.

                  > ... could anyone fluent / proficient in Coptic offer comments on the
                  > seemingly corrupt verb tenses in this logion and also corroborate
                  > if the oft translated word "wherever" might not better be translated
                  > as "whenever"...

                  DeConick implies that a number of Coptic experts think that 68.2 is
                  corrupt, but not because of the 'wherever'. Although 68.1 says
                  "You're blest WHEN you're hated", 68.2 has no temporal words in
                  it. It uses Greek TOPOS and the Coptic equivalent MA - both
                  designating place, not time.

                  As to who the 'they' is in "they hate you" and "they persecute you",
                  these are passive constructions. Since there was no true passive
                  in Coptic, the passive was expressed by using an unreferenced
                  'they'. It should be read as "you're hated" and "you're persecuted",
                  respectively. (There's notes to this effect in my interlinear for L.68)

                  > ... the last sentence of the logion is not given in the same tense
                  > as the first sentence. That is, ("when you are hated" /present tense,
                  > or possibly in a figurative sense "future" tense) versus "you have been"
                  > persecuted (past tense) and they ... "will find" no place (future tense).

                  I don't see any problem with two adjacent sentences having different
                  tenses. I'm pretty sure I could find a lot of examples like that in just
                  about any written work. Reading it as follows may help:

                  "Don't worry when you're hated. Remember that wherever you've
                  been persecuted in the past, that place no longer exists."

                  Might be a little felt oddity, but not all that badly muddled, I think.

                  Regards,
                  Mike
                • Michael Grondin
                  ... Insofar as there may be evidence of a Syriac community founded by the apostle Thomas, I d withdraw my recommendation. But Riley doesn t seem to use that
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 19, 2009
                    About ten days ago, I wrote the following:

                    > What I'd recommend in this discussion is to drop the suggestion
                    > of a Thomasine community at the time of GJn. There's simply no
                    > evidence for that ...

                    Insofar as there may be evidence of a Syriac community founded
                    by the apostle Thomas, I'd withdraw my recommendation. But Riley
                    doesn't seem to use that evidence, if there be any. Instead, he seems
                    to assume that the Gospel of Thomas was around at the time of GJn,
                    therefore a Thomasine community was around. Point for Skinner.

                    On the anti-Skinner front, I've looked at the use of the character
                    Philip in GJn. To my mind, it doesn't compare in negativity with
                    the use of Thomas. "Uncomprehending character" (Skinner's phrase)
                    is one thing, but "unbelieving character" is another. Riley observes
                    that although Gos.John uses the verb "to believe" over 90 times,
                    the word 'apistos' ('unbelieving'/'unfaithful') is used only of Thomas.

                    What the Johannine writers did to John the Baptist may be relevant.
                    That there _was_ a JB community around at the time seems certain.
                    Yet the Johannines put words into the mouth of JB that he never
                    uttered, and which his followers would have strongly disavowed.
                    Similarly, I doubt whether those nominal Christians who didn't believe
                    in physical resurrection were much moved or pleased by the "doubting
                    Thomas" scene. Annoyed and insulted is probably more like it.

                    All in all, I think the John-Thomas debate is a good one. It has many
                    interesting facets to it that will no doubt be explored as we proceed,
                    probably well into September. The most important background
                    reading seems to be Riley's and Skinner's books, but we'll get
                    together a more comprehensive list when I get back from San
                    Antonio (19th-24th).

                    Best to all,
                    Mike Grondin
                  • Christopher Skinner
                    Mike wrote: To my mind, it doesn t compare in negativity with the use of Thomas. Uncomprehending character (Skinner s phrase) is one thing, but
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 19, 2009
                      Mike wrote: "To my mind, it doesn't compare in negativity with the use of
                      Thomas. "Uncomprehending character" (Skinner's phrase) is one thing, but
                      "unbelieving character" is another. Riley observes that although Gos.John
                      uses the verb "to believe" over 90 times, the word 'apistos'
                      ('unbelieving'/'unfaithful') is used only of Thomas."

                      Again, I want to point out that such data, taken on its own can seem
                      impressive in favor of the community-conflict hypothesis. But, when we
                      undertake a more thorough examination of the Fourth Gospel, this point seems
                      less weighty. While I can appreciate the significance of this being the only
                      explicit use of the word "apistos" applied to a character in the Fourth
                      Gospel, Thomas is not the only character to display "unbelief." In fact,
                      embedded in my use of the phrase "uncomprehending character" is a given
                      character's consistent failure to grasp the Fourth Gospel's presentation of
                      Jesus' message and mission as revealed, initially, in the Prologue (1:1-18)
                      and built upon thereafter. This means that even though other characters are
                      not explicitly referred to as "unbelieving,' the overall presentation of
                      uncomprehending characters includes an element failing to exercise what is
                      deemed "proper Johannine faith." This is true of disciples and even
                      non-disciples like Nicodemus (who confesses Jesus as a "teacher from God")
                      and Martha (who confesses, "I have always believed [intensive perfect of
                      Greek *pisteuo*] that you are the Christ, the son of God, coming into the
                      world). Thus, my point is this: it is not necessary for every
                      uncomprehending character to be called "apistos" for the reader to
                      understand that those characters have not exercised proper belief (that is,
                      belief according to Johannine standards).

                      I hope that at least clarifies my position a little better.

                      Regards,

                      Chris Skinner


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Michael Grondin
                      Thanks, Chris. I look forward to more discussions after I get back from San Antonio and get a chance to read your book. Best wishes, Mike
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 19, 2009
                        Thanks, Chris. I look forward to more discussions after I get
                        back from San Antonio and get a chance to read your book.

                        Best wishes,
                        Mike
                      • Michael Grondin
                        Came across a couple of interesting reviews of April DeConick s _Voices of the Mystics: Early Christian Discourse in the Gospels of John and Thomas and Other
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 27, 2009
                          Came across a couple of interesting reviews of April DeConick's
                          _Voices of the Mystics: Early Christian Discourse in the Gospels
                          of John and Thomas and Other Ancient Christian Literature_.
                          According to the more negative of the two reviews:

                          "DeConick argues that "the Johannine author creates the Synthetic
                          End Point, faith mysticism, in response to vision mysticism promoted
                          by the Thomasine Christians" (p 127). This makes sense to her, does it?
                          The Johannine author had to invent faith as a way to fight back against
                          the Thomas group? No one had heard of faith before in Paul's time, say?"

                          Of course, once one looks at this criticism carefully, it becomes
                          apparent that its superficial effectiveness is based on the fallacy of
                          equivocation - in this case, of equating "faith mysticism" with "faith"
                          simpliciter. The reviewer (who is obviously not sympathetic to
                          DeConick) gets some other things wrong as well, but still his review
                          and the other one (which is more positive) are worth reading, I think,
                          to get some feel for what DeConick wrote in a book which is relevant
                          to the Riley-Skinner debate, but which most folks (including myself)
                          haven't read.

                          http://www.amazon.com/Voices-Mystics-Academic-Paperback-Deconick/product-reviews/0567081281/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

                          Mike Grondin
                        • Michael Grondin
                          Sorry, it s not the fallacy of equivocation. It s another fallacy which is related to it by being the opposite side of the same coin. The fallacy of
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 27, 2009
                            Sorry, it's not the fallacy of equivocation. It's another fallacy which
                            is related to it by being the opposite side of the same coin. The
                            fallacy of equivocation is the use of the same word (or phrase) in
                            two different senses in the same argument. The fallacy that the reviewer
                            committed is the use of two different words (or phrases) in the same
                            argument as if they had the same meaning, when in fact they don't.
                            (This is a common form of fallacious argument, but I don't know the
                            technical name of it.)

                            Mike G.
                          • ianbrown6796
                            Michael, I have followed this thread with great interest for the past few weeks and am happy to have the opportunity to contribute something that may hopefully
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 28, 2009
                              Michael,

                              I have followed this thread with great interest for the past few weeks and am happy to have the opportunity to contribute something that may hopefully be of some use. DeConick's 2007 Thomas monograph and her 2008 commentary are what really got me interested in GosThom, so when I was still on my DeConick bender I also read _Voices of the Mystics_ (VoM). While I have since drifted away from the theoretical position DeConick takes in the book, I think it is still well worth the read (and isn't too expensive, around $25 used on amazon). For the most part I agree with the way she approaches intertextuality and diversity in early Christianities, even if I don't agree with her conclusions. In my eyes VoM does not draw on a sufficient amount of evidence to conclude that the Gospel of John was not only aware of, but was written as a polemic against, the Gospel of Thomas. The doubting Thomas scene functions just as well as a rhetorical example within the Gospel of John, and there doesn't seem need to posit an inter-gospel dialogue to explain it. Additionally, if we understand the attribution of the Gospel of Thomas to Thomas (and therefore the prologue) as being a relatively late accretion (which DeConick herself does, dating it as late as 120 CE, see _Recovering the Original Gospel of Thomas_ page 98) then we begin to encounter difficulties with the relative dating of John in relation to Thomas. Dating aside, my biggest issue with DeConick's thesis revolves around the rhetoric of Thomas as opposed to the rhetoric of John. I understand Thomas along similar lines that William Arnal and John Kloppenborg understand Q: a document of scribal origin whose rhetorical polemic is aimed primarily against the changing economic relationships that have been brought on by Roman economic expansion. I conclude in agreement with Arnal's 1995 essay, "The Rhetoric of Marginality," arguing that "there are grounds, then, for comparing the Gospel of Thomas and Q [or in our case, John] on the basis of their social characteristics rather than their literary or theological features" (494). Thus while I agree with DeConick that intertextuality is very important in the study of early Christianities, I think that comparisons based on social, rather than theological, characteristics are more helpful.

                              Ian
                            • Michael Grondin
                              Hi Ian, I hope you won t hesitate to send your further thoughts to the list. There s always something in what an informed person writes that sparks others to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 28, 2009
                                Hi Ian,

                                I hope you won't hesitate to send your further thoughts to the list.
                                There's always something in what an informed person writes that
                                sparks others to think and respond. A couple of things that piqued
                                my interest:

                                > ... if we understand the attribution of the Gospel of Thomas to Thomas
                                > (and therefore the prologue) as being a relatively late accretion (which
                                > DeConick herself does, dating it as late as 120 CE, see _Recovering
                                > the Original Gospel of Thomas_ page 98) then we begin to encounter
                                > difficulties with the relative dating of John in relation to Thomas.

                                Yes, I see that DeConick dates both references to Thomas (viz., the
                                Incipit and L.13) to 80-120. I'm not sure of the import of this. On the
                                one hand, it might seem that the work could hardly have been called
                                "The Gospel of Thomas" when it was (supposedly) at a stage where
                                Thomas wasn't mentioned, but on the other hand we do have gospels
                                (Luke, Mark) where the attributed author isn't mentioned in the text.
                                Maybe what DeConick was thinking was that the original kernel of
                                Thomas was already associated with that name, even though the
                                text didn't yet contain any references to him.

                                > ... while I agree with DeConick that intertextuality is very important in
                                > the study of early Christianities, I think that comparisons based on
                                > social, rather than theological, characteristics are more helpful.

                                To me, the two go hand-in-glove, both historically and analytically.
                                To my way of thinking, theology is/was the hand-maiden of socio-
                                political considerations. Making a heavenly necessity out of earthly
                                longings, as it were. One of the intellectual slogans of the time was
                                "as above, so below", but the actuality seems to have been rather
                                that "as (we want it to be) below, so (it must be) above".

                                The problem for us, however, is that the theology of a given group
                                is explicit in its texts, but the socio-political status usually isn't. So
                                what do we do? Try to read the latter through the prism of the former,
                                or turn to some external tool like "the social approach"? One of the
                                problems I see with that approach is that it focuses (of necessity) on
                                large groups, so that the kind and scope of socio-political generalities
                                it typically produces may very well not apply to smaller groups in special
                                circumstances. In particular, the perceived status of small text-producing
                                groups - which is exactly what we're interested in. So while the "social
                                approach" might be helpful if it worked, I tend to think of it as a rather
                                clumsy macro-tool that doesn't work well at the micro-level needed.

                                Regards,
                                Mike
                              • ianbrown6796
                                Hi Mike, Thanks for the reply. ... I agree with you that is possible (even likely) that the Thomasine community attributed their gospel to the disciple Thomas
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 28, 2009
                                  Hi Mike,

                                  Thanks for the reply.

                                  You wrote:
                                  > Maybe what DeConick was thinking was that the original kernel of
                                  > Thomas was already associated with that name, even though the
                                  > text didn't yet contain any references to him.

                                  I agree with you that is possible (even likely) that the Thomasine community attributed their gospel to the disciple Thomas before the gospel was so named. I guess what I was trying to convey was that the point you raise should have been more clearly defended, rather than relying on the Gospel's name-sake.

                                  You wrote:
                                  > To me, the two go hand-in-glove, both historically and analytically.
                                  > To my way of thinking, theology is/was the hand-maiden of socio-
                                  > political considerations. Making a heavenly necessity out of earthly
                                  > longings, as it were. One of the intellectual slogans of the time was
                                  > "as above, so below", but the actuality seems to have been rather
                                  > that "as (we want it to be) below, so (it must be) above".

                                  To this I would respond that yes, I agree that theology and social situations are intimately tied to each other, but I think there is a limit to its usefulness. For example: when we are looking at the theology of GosThom alongside the theology of GosJohn I don't see this approach being as helpful, specifically in the way DeConick utilizes it. When the argument is raised that two documents share certain theological inclinations, we can pursue that argument by asking what the social conditions may have been that made these theological claims attractive to that group. Conversely if the argument is raised that two documents exhibit contradictory theological inclinations (as is argued for GosThom and GosJohn) then we can go on to ask whether or not the social conditions that made opposing the theological claims attractive to each groups may well have been opposing social conditions. I don't think this is the case with GosThom and GosJohn. Here it seems to me that the theological differences can be better explained by analyzing the social conditions of each group, rather than by hypothesizing an inter-gospel debate over proper soteriological understanding of Jesus.

                                  You wrote:
                                  > The problem for us, however, is that the theology of a given group
                                  > is explicit in its texts, but the socio-political status usually isn't.
                                  > Try to read the latter through the prism of the former,
                                  > or turn to some external tool like "the social approach"? One of the
                                  > problems I see with that approach is that it focuses (of necessity) on
                                  > large groups, so that the kind and scope of socio-political generalities
                                  > it typically produces may very well not apply to smaller groups in special
                                  > circumstances.

                                  I would have to disagree. I don't think we can excavate anything explicit from the Gospels. While I appreciate the fact that biblical studies has many wonderful tools with which we can use to analyze our primary sources, the fact of the matter is these tools barely scratch the surface of the world in which these texts were produced. I my mind we need external tools such as: literary criticism, post-colonial theory, critical theory, sociology, archaeology, feminist theory, and so on in order to shed new light on these texts. I share your concern that essentializing groups along theoretical lines set by us in the present isn't helpful, but I would argue that categorization and some degree of generalization can be very helpful in making new insights into ancient texts. Perhaps you could clarify for me your below statement,

                                  > In particular, the perceived status of small text-producing
                                  > groups - which is exactly what we're interested in. So while the "social
                                  > approach" might be helpful if it worked, I tend to think of it as a rather
                                  > clumsy macro-tool that doesn't work well at the micro-level needed.

                                  I don't think you are saying that the Thomasine community is so utterly unique that we cannot use any other tools to examine it and its gospel. But it does seem to me that you are limiting your tools of analysis, whereas my philosophy would be "the more tools the better."

                                  Sorry I quoted so much of your last post, but it was very thought provoking and I wanted to treat each part of it as fairly as I could.

                                  Ian
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