Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Inter-Christian Polemic in GJn?

Expand Messages
  • ravensschmavens
    Mike, I am sorry to be getting to this late. I have been moving my family and all my stuff from Baltimore to Virginia Beach over the last few days and I am
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 28, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Mike,

      I am sorry to be getting to this late. I have been moving my family and all my "stuff" from Baltimore to Virginia Beach over the last few days and I am just now getting to this thread. Thanks for taking the time to interact with my book!

      With regard to your post, I can offer a few thoughts off to top of my head now and then write more later when I have had some more time to think.

      First, in general, I am skeptical of the trend in modern gospels research that (rightly, in my opinion) questions the historicity of certain elements within the gospels themselves and then (inappropriately, in my opinion) begins to construct the history behind the composition of the gospel with great precision and confidence. I think there should be a good amount of measured agnosticism about what lies (historically) both in and behind the gospels. This means that I am not always convinced by arguments about what a given "community" thought or how that "community" would have behaved. In addition, it means that I am even more skeptical about discussing how these "communities" would have interacted/disputed with each other.

      Second, I regard the question of Thomas's relationship to the Fourth Gospel as a very important question and one which I do not think has been solved. In my book I focus more on the arguments of DeConick, Pagels, Riley, Johnson, et. al. and I am not specifically concerned to offer a final answer on how the two "communities"/gospels might be related. In the book I am applying a narrative approach to the FG with a view to questioning DeConick, Riley, Pagels. A definitive answer to the broader question is, to my mind, still open.

      Third, as to the question "were the Thomasines docetists?": I have been considering recently whether it is possible that the group of "antichrists" (1 John 2:17ff) that seceded from the Johannine community is somehow connected, theologically, to the group that some today call the Thomasine community. Answering this question in the affirmative would require me thinking through a number of things, not the least of which is my view for a late date of the final composition of GTh. Although I will say that I have been challenged and instructed very much by April's work on this question over the last few years.

      That's probably enough for now. I would like to discuss this more and I hope to gain some insight from the group.

      Regards,

      Chris



      --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Grondin" <mwgrondin@...> wrote:
      >
      > Since Christopher Skinner is now onboard, we have an opportunity
      > to question him about the views expressed in his recent book
      > _John and Thomas: Gospels in Conflict?_, reviewed, as previously
      > noted, on Michael Bird's blog:
      >
      > http://euangelizomai.blogspot.com/search/label/Gospel%20of%20Thomas
      >
      > Bird writes:
      >
      > "In this volume Christopher Skinner contests the notion that the Fourth
      > Gospel was composed as a polemic against Thomasine Christians or
      > the Gospel of Thomas due to certain readings of John 20.24-28 which
      > are said to reflect and inter-community conflict. Skinner points out that
      > Thomas is a fairly insignificant character in the Fourth Gospel, Thomas
      > is simply one of many unbelieving and uncomprehending characters
      > which provide a narrative foil for the literary and the theological designs
      > of the Fourth Gospel, and interactions between Jesus and Thomas
      > do not reflect interneccine strife anymore than the interactions between
      > Jesus and Phillip."
      >
      > The first point I would pick at here is the statement that "Thomas is a
      > fairly insignificant character in the Fourth Gospel..." True enough, Thomas
      > isn't mentioned often, appearing in only four scenes (same as Philip). But
      > of course his appearance in Chapter 20 is what makes him a major player.
      > Now I suppose that Skinner would respond that any of the twelve would
      > have equally suited John's purpose, but it seems to me more plausible
      > that it was something about Thomas (or the Thomasine school) that was
      > particularly well-suited to the Johannine school's picking him as the chief
      > foil in their fictional theological drama in ch.20.
      >
      > It may be noted that in Jn.21, Thomas stands in good stead, being included
      > in 21:2 with Peter, Nathanael and the sons of Zebedee as among those
      > who witnessed the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus at the Sea of
      > Galilee. My understanding, however, is that the Thomas scene in Jn.20
      > is generally considered to have been added after Jn.21. This would make
      > sense in a certain way of thinking, namely, that Thomas wasn't a major
      > character in the earlier version of GJn, but became one when ch.20 was
      > either added or significantly modified at a later date. What, then, might
      > have happened in between? One suggestion is that the original version
      > of John's gospel itself had some unanticipated consequences.
      >
      > Aside from the question of whether Thomas was a major character, the
      > larger question is whether GJn reflects an inter-Christian polemical
      > struggle, and if so, whether the nature of that struggle was such that it
      > might have involved Thomasine Christians. My initial take on this is that
      > John's gospel and letters both indicate an inter-Christian (but possibly
      > local) struggle of some magnitude, and that the issue involved was whether
      > Christians had to believe that Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human being,
      > as opposed to a docetic figure who only appeared to be human. It may
      > in fact be the case that the first version of John's Gospel gave aid and
      > comfort to the docetists, so intent was John on showing (against the
      > Synoptics) that Jesus had the mind of a god. If so, then the later version
      > of GJn responded with vigor to this unanticipated consequence, with
      > significant revisions to (at least) chapters 6 and 20.
      >
      > Were the Thomasines docetists? That isn't at all clear to me one way
      > or another. What they did seem to clearly deny was that the death of
      > Jesus had any redemptive or atonement value, and of course that
      > would have been anathema to the Johannine school. They may also
      > have denied that Jesus rose in the flesh, which is apparently the basis
      > for Thomas featuring in Jn.20, although it's clearly implied that Jesus
      > is at that point a spiritual being (since he can appear out of nowhere),
      > and one has to wonder how it is that a spiritual Jesus temporarily taking
      > on his former material form can prove that he rose in the flesh. (John
      > seems to want to have it both ways.)
      >
      > Anyway, hope this starts some discussion.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Mike Grondin
      >
    • sarban
      ... From: Michael Grondin To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: [GTh] Inter-Christian Polemic in GJn? Since Christopher
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 30, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Michael Grondin
        To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 7:40 PM
        Subject: [GTh] Inter-Christian Polemic in GJn?


        Since Christopher Skinner is now onboard, we have an opportunity
        to question him about the views expressed in his recent book
        _John and Thomas: Gospels in Conflict?_, reviewed, as previously
        noted, on Michael Bird's blog:

        http://euangelizomai.blogspot.com/search/label/Gospel%20of%20Thomas

        Bird writes:

        "In this volume Christopher Skinner contests the notion that the Fourth
        Gospel was composed as a polemic against Thomasine Christians or
        the Gospel of Thomas due to certain readings of John 20.24-28 which
        are said to reflect and inter-community conflict. Skinner points out that
        Thomas is a fairly insignificant character in the Fourth Gospel, Thomas
        is simply one of many unbelieving and uncomprehending characters
        which provide a narrative foil for the literary and the theological designs
        of the Fourth Gospel, and interactions between Jesus and Thomas
        do not reflect interneccine strife anymore than the interactions between
        Jesus and Phillip."



        Hi Mike

        In this context the book by Ismo Dunderberg The Beloved Disciple in Conflict? should be considered.
        It is reviewed at http://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/dunderberg-on-john-and-thomas.html with a link to a large excerpt.

        Dunderberg suggests that although John is emphasizing the authority of the "beloved disciple" at the expense of other sources of Apostolic Tradition, there is no reason to hold that Thomas is a priority target.

        Andrew Criddle

        .



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Grondin
        Hi Andrew, Thanks for your link to the Dunderberg notice: http://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/dunderberg-on-john-and-thomas.html Just to let you know, Andrew
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 30, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Andrew,

          Thanks for your link to the Dunderberg notice:
          http://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/dunderberg-on-john-and-thomas.html

          Just to let you know, Andrew Bernhard and I are working with Chris
          Skinner behind the scenes to see if we can set up a prominent
          exposition of his views along with those with whom his new book
          is in dialogue. The latter include Riley, Pagels, and DeConick, in
          various books and articles. I don't have the relevant DeConick
          works in my library, but as between Riley and Pagels, ISTM that
          Riley is by far the best opponent for Skinner and Dunderberg.
          In fact, Pagels' _Beyond Belief_ strikes me as so weak on the
          issue that I'm tempted to ignore it entirely.

          A clip from Dunderberg's book (which came after Riley's) may
          highlight at least one important point at issue. Dunderberg
          writes (p.206) that some scholars (presumably including Riley)
          "... have attempted to create a conflict between the canonized
          John and the non-canonical Thomas. It is especially intriguing
          that the issues in the alleged conflict between the two gospels
          are often identical to later doctrinal debates in the Church about
          the divinity of Christ, or about the resurrection of the body and
          the immortality of the soul."

          Frankly, this passage strikes me as disingenuous twice over.
          First, regardless of whether there were "later doctrinal debates"
          about the resurrection of the body, ISTM unarguable that there
          were also EARLY doctrinal debates about that issue. Even
          assuming that Thomas is late, we still have the evidence of
          early letters from Paul, John, and Ignatius indicating this.
          Furthermore, it's disingenuous to charge Riley et al with
          "attempting" to create a conflict between John and Thomas
          when Riley has argued (rather well, I think) that the conflict is plain
          on the face of it. Not only Thomas itself, but the other two works
          (Book of Thomas, Acts of Thomas) show no indication of a
          belief in "the resurrection of the body" (except for one clause
          attached to L.5 in the Greek fragments, but not present in the
          Coptic version), and several indicators that they do not (among
          which "I will destroy this house and no one will be able to
          build it up again.") In the Thomasine tradition, the body is
          roundly despised. ISTM not bloody likely, then, that they would
          have agreed that Jesus was raised in his (physical) body.

          What I mean to do here is simply to point out that on this
          particular issue, Riley seems to have a very good case,
          and Dunderberg (at least in the quoted portion of his
          concluding statements) not only doesn't seem to recognize
          that, but actually engages in a bit of misdirection and minimalizing
          that strikes this argument-analyst as ill-conceived. Having said that,
          I should also say that the excerpts I've read from Skinner's book
          are much better, and so I look forward to seeing how he responds
          to Riley's case.

          Mike Grondin
        • Paul Lanier
          ... Hi Chris, and welcome. I would defend the thesis that Jn20-21 was composed mainly in response to the Petrine and Thomas communities. The story says that it
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 31, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "ravensschmavens" <christopherwskinner@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am not always convinced by arguments about what a given "community" thought or how that "community" would have behaved. In addition, it means that I am even more skeptical about discussing how these "communities" would have interacted/disputed with each other.

            Hi Chris, and welcome.

            I would defend the thesis that Jn20-21 was composed mainly in response to the Petrine and Thomas communities.

            The story says that it is Thomas who doubts. The lesson is then extended to other believers. I ask why the author, after presenting stories of Jesus' miracles and resurrection, has composed this story.

            Answering that question means drawing some inferences. I would suggest the most reasonable inference is that the author has singled out Thomas as one who requires physical evidence before belief in a physical resurrection. Since John was composed 70+ years after Jesus' death, it also seems reasonable to conclude that in the author's time, Thomas has long since passed away, but his community – or a community claiming to follow him – remains as an influential counter to the author. The Thomas community says Thomas did not know of resurrection; John counters by saying Thomas was not present at first, but later was present. It is easy to see how this story provides an argument for the Petrine and Johannine communities to dismiss the Thomas community as simply uninformed.

            I would argue that these inferences are fit well with other evidence. Chief among these is the absence of miracles or resurrection in Gospel of Thomas. In Thomas, Jesus is simply a wise (or Cynical) human being. That of course accords well with the view of Doubting Thomas in Jn20. The author adds a few nails to the Thomas community coffin by telling how Thomas was present for the next two appearances of the risen Lord.

            The author's description of the final appearance is telling. Thomas, the unbeliever who was missing for the original appearance to the disciples of the risen Lord, is now listed second, right after Simon Peter! This reflects the later addition of Jn21 ("the appendix") but I would also suggest it also indicates the size or influence of the Thomas community in the author's time. Why else list Thomas right after Peter?

            In fact the organizing theme of Jn20-21 is post-Jesus authority. The discovery at the empty tomb mirrors this: Mary Magdalene, Simon Peter, "the other disciple," the rest of the disciples minus Thomas, then Thomas. Both chapters insert Nathanael and "the other disciple" as witnesses. Nathanael is prefigured at 1:47 – "an Israelite in whom there is no guile. And 1:46-50 (Doubting Nathanael – "can anything good come out of Nazareth?") in fact parallels 20:25-29. Likewise Thomas and Nathanael are two of the seven disciples present in Jn21 for the third appearance of the risen Lord. It is tempting to speculate that the order given – Simon Peter, Thomas, Nathanael –reflects the three communities of the author's time. Here Thomas is a witness again – if any of his community do not "believe" then, according to the author, they contradict their own founders (Jesus and Thomas).

            Is this certain? No. Is it the most reasonable hypothesis? I would argue that it is!

            Regards, Paul
          • Michael Grondin
            ... Got to watch out for statements like this, Paul. It takes the position of Matthew in L.13 (which is a mistaken one) and ignores L.77 and several others. As
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 31, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              > In Thomas, Jesus is simply a wise (or Cynical) human being.

              Got to watch out for statements like this, Paul. It takes the position
              of Matthew in L.13 (which is a mistaken one) and ignores L.77 and
              several others. As I recall, Riley makes the same mistake at a
              crucial point.

              Cheers,
              Mike
            • ravensschmavens
              Paul, Thanks for your thoughtful post. I do not deny that, taken on its own apart from other internal considerations, the evidence for an anti-Thomas polemic
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 31, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Paul,

                Thanks for your thoughtful post. I do not deny that, taken on its own apart from other internal considerations, the "evidence" for an anti-Thomas polemic can seem quite compelling. In fact, I think many who have read Riley, Pagels, and others without significant consideration of the Fourth Gospel have come away convinced. I find some elements of the community-conflict hypothesis compelling but in the end I am not persuaded because of the consistent presentation of Johannine characters in a manner similar to the treatment Thomas receives. I think we tread on dangerous ground indeed when we approach the text of the Fourth Gospel with a view to mining the text for insights that will help us say something about a conflict that is (1) purely speculative, and (2) external to the Johannine narrative. A more helpful and instructive approach, IMHO, is to examine the Fourth Gospel and draw out themes, motifs, commonalities, etc. When we do this, we see that Thomas is treated in much the same way as other characters. Each of these uncomprehending characters has a specific misunderstanding that the Johannine Jesus corrects or instructs. If Thomas were the only one to receive such a harsh treatment then I would find Riley, Pagels, and DeConick convincing. But as it stands, there is too much internal evidence (viz., within the Johannine account)that affirms the Fourth Gospel's intent for me to waste significant time on highly speculative external discussions.

                Having said that, I still do not think the issue of John's relationship to Thomas has been solved. I simply find the community-conflict hypothesis unconvincing. I await more discussion on the issue because I really would like to have an answer to students who ask! As for Peter, I do discuss the anti-Petrine view of the Fourth Gospel in my book as well. I'm sure that will come up again.

                Warmest regards,

                Chris



                --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lanier" <jpaullanier@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "ravensschmavens" <christopherwskinner@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I am not always convinced by arguments about what a given "community" thought or how that "community" would have behaved. In addition, it means that I am even more skeptical about discussing how these "communities" would have interacted/disputed with each other.
                >
                > Hi Chris, and welcome.
                >
                > I would defend the thesis that Jn20-21 was composed mainly in response to the Petrine and Thomas communities.
                >
                > The story says that it is Thomas who doubts. The lesson is then extended to other believers. I ask why the author, after presenting stories of Jesus' miracles and resurrection, has composed this story.
                >
                > Answering that question means drawing some inferences. I would suggest the most reasonable inference is that the author has singled out Thomas as one who requires physical evidence before belief in a physical resurrection. Since John was composed 70+ years after Jesus' death, it also seems reasonable to conclude that in the author's time, Thomas has long since passed away, but his community – or a community claiming to follow him – remains as an influential counter to the author. The Thomas community says Thomas did not know of resurrection; John counters by saying Thomas was not present at first, but later was present. It is easy to see how this story provides an argument for the Petrine and Johannine communities to dismiss the Thomas community as simply uninformed.
                >
                > I would argue that these inferences are fit well with other evidence. Chief among these is the absence of miracles or resurrection in Gospel of Thomas. In Thomas, Jesus is simply a wise (or Cynical) human being. That of course accords well with the view of Doubting Thomas in Jn20. The author adds a few nails to the Thomas community coffin by telling how Thomas was present for the next two appearances of the risen Lord.
                >
                > The author's description of the final appearance is telling. Thomas, the unbeliever who was missing for the original appearance to the disciples of the risen Lord, is now listed second, right after Simon Peter! This reflects the later addition of Jn21 ("the appendix") but I would also suggest it also indicates the size or influence of the Thomas community in the author's time. Why else list Thomas right after Peter?
                >
                > In fact the organizing theme of Jn20-21 is post-Jesus authority. The discovery at the empty tomb mirrors this: Mary Magdalene, Simon Peter, "the other disciple," the rest of the disciples minus Thomas, then Thomas. Both chapters insert Nathanael and "the other disciple" as witnesses. Nathanael is prefigured at 1:47 – "an Israelite in whom there is no guile. And 1:46-50 (Doubting Nathanael – "can anything good come out of Nazareth?") in fact parallels 20:25-29. Likewise Thomas and Nathanael are two of the seven disciples present in Jn21 for the third appearance of the risen Lord. It is tempting to speculate that the order given – Simon Peter, Thomas, Nathanael –reflects the three communities of the author's time. Here Thomas is a witness again – if any of his community do not "believe" then, according to the author, they contradict their own founders (Jesus and Thomas).
                >
                > Is this certain? No. Is it the most reasonable hypothesis? I would argue that it is!
                >
                > Regards, Paul
                >
              • Paul Lanier
                ... Hi Mike, I should have said original Thomas (or something more like it than what we have). I think questions like these hinge on whether one believes
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 31, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Grondin" <mwgrondin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > In Thomas, Jesus is simply a wise (or Cynical) human being.
                  >
                  > Got to watch out for statements like this, Paul [Jesus is wise/Cynic]. It takes the position of Matthew in L.13 (which is a mistaken one) and ignores L.77 and several others.

                  Hi Mike,

                  I should have said "original Thomas" (or something more like it than what we have).

                  I think questions like these hinge on whether one believes that the statements of Jesus' divinity are original or later. Since it seems far more likely that Jesus' role would be inflated, rather than deflated or conflated, over time, I take the view that sayings and accounts showing Jesus' humanity tend to be original (Tend to be!).

                  So in Thomas I would place the gnosticizing elements later.

                  By the way, I did not have L.13 in mind. I am thinking of original Thomas logia in the same sense that Mack characterizes Q1: "terse sayings." Mack of course identifies these as closer to Greek Cynical dialog than anything else. Sorry for the confusion.

                  Regards, Paul
                • Paul Lanier
                  ... Hi Chris, Agreed. This is just what an emerging sect would need to do to establish itself as authentic. Of course I wonder how a constantly critical Jesus
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 31, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "ravensschmavens" <christopherwskinner@...> wrote:
                    > I find some elements of the community-conflict hypothesis compelling but in the end I am not persuaded because of the consistent presentation of Johannine characters in a manner similar to the treatment Thomas receives... Thomas is treated in much the same way as other characters. Each of these uncomprehending characters has a specific misunderstanding that the Johannine Jesus corrects or instructs.

                    Hi Chris,

                    Agreed. This is just what an emerging sect would need to do to establish itself as authentic. Of course I wonder how a constantly critical Jesus would have attracted anyone!

                    You raise a valid point and those of us who read more into Jn20-21 than perhaps is there would do well to address it. My initial take is that these are the characters known from writings available to the author, since those characters would be long gone, and that there is a great deal of bolstering the author's authority in Jn20-21. This implies conflict, since otherwise there is no need for the author to refer to "the other disciple" outracing and outliving Peter (and being more observant, too!).

                    I will give some more thought to this and get back to it soon.

                    Regards, Paul
                  • Michael Grondin
                    ... Chris, I m sure we ll discuss this at greater length when we get into the more structured program we re trying to set up to highlight your views and your
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 31, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > I think we tread on dangerous ground indeed when we approach
                      > the text of the Fourth Gospel with a view to mining the text for
                      > insights that will help us say something about a conflict that is
                      > (1) purely speculative, and (2) external to the Johannine narrative.

                      Chris,

                      I'm sure we'll discuss this at greater length when we get into the
                      more structured program we're trying to set up to highlight your
                      views and your book, but just for starters, can you say a little
                      something to remove the apparent contradiction between the
                      very real conflict evident in John's letters (with folks that Raymond
                      Brown called 'secessionists'), and your reference above to "a conflict
                      that is ... purely speculative ..."?

                      Mike
                    • Paul Lanier
                      ... Hi Chris, That may be true, but not in my case. My view on it came with reading Jn20 after joining this group. It just seemed obvious to me that the author
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 1, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "ravensschmavens" <christopherwskinner@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think many who have read Riley, Pagels, and others without significant consideration of the Fourth Gospel have come away convinced.

                        Hi Chris,

                        That may be true, but not in my case. My view on it came with reading Jn20 after joining this group. It just seemed obvious to me that the author devises Jn20 to bolster his authority over against that of Peter and Thomas. Certainly competitive authority is a common motif in most NT writings, and I see no reason to reject that exegetical approach here. Unless one is willing to argue that the account is historical, rather than simply polemical. I think that would be untenable in John, considering its lengthy speeches and very late composition.

                        Pagels' case in Beyond Belief is outlined, rather than detailed, but I do agree with her conclusions on competition for doctrine between John's and Thomas's communities. I have not read Riley or anyone else on this. I long for the day when scholars publish all their works online for the purpose of open discussion (hint!).

                        > I find some elements of the community-conflict hypothesis compelling but in the end I am not persuaded because of the consistent presentation of Johannine characters in a manner similar to the treatment Thomas receives.

                        I do not see why this is a problem. I argue that Jn20-21 reflects historical competition between Petrine, Johannine, and Thomasine communities. I do not argue that no other competition existed. I would add that the author's criticism of Thomas centers on death/resurrection, and that this fits well with what we understand of original Thomas.

                        > I think we tread on dangerous ground indeed when we approach the text of the Fourth Gospel with a view to mining the text for insights that will help us say something about a conflict that is (1) purely speculative, and (2) external to the Johannine narrative.

                        I would argue that evidence-based inferences are far from speculation. A good example on this occurs in bridge. One mark of the expert is the ability to draw inferences and proceed accordingly. I hope we are not saying here that an informed inference is mere speculation!

                        I would also note that any correct historical approach ought to be integrative. Thus an approach which seeks to understand the relationship of two communities will consider evidence of shared characteristics as well as those which are not shared.

                        That being said, I respect your views and I look forward to seeing more detail from you!

                        Regards, Paul
                      • Michael Grondin
                        ... Hi Paul, FWIW, I m in agreement with you, but let s be a little more specific. In chapter 20, the Peter-vs-BD stuff is in verses 2-20, and is
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 2, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > I argue that Jn20-21 reflects historical competition between
                          > Petrine, Johannine, and Thomasine communities.

                          Hi Paul,

                          FWIW, I'm in agreement with you, but let's be a little more
                          specific. In chapter 20, the Peter-vs-BD stuff is in verses
                          2-20, and is self-contained. That is, if those verses were
                          left out, and we imagine it jumping from verse 1 to verse 21,
                          it would still read smoothly. More smoothly, in fact, because
                          in verse 1, Mary comes to the tomb, and in verse 11
                          she's standing outside it weeping. But if you add in
                          verses 2-20, there's a narrative gap about how she got
                          back there from verse 1 to verse 21.

                          The anti-Thomas stuff is similarly self-contained, this time
                          near the end of ch. 20, in verses 24-29. Verse 23 could easily
                          be regarded as the end of a climactic appearance to the Twelve,
                          with 30-31 tacked on to it directly (without the anti-Thomas stuff)
                          as the probable end of the gospel at some earlier stage than
                          now extant (ch.21 having been added later, as widely believed.)

                          As far as chapter 21, there's more Peter-vs-BD stuff in
                          there, but nothing anti-Thomas. So mentioning both chapters
                          20 and 21, and both characters Peter and Thomas, in the
                          same breath strikes me as a bit confusing. Furthermore,
                          I'm not clear that one affects the other. That is to say, if
                          Chris were to stipulate that there's a Peter-vs-BD polemic
                          going on in chs. 20-21, what would follow from that about
                          the anti-Thomas stuff in ch.20? Do you believe it would
                          make Chris' position weaker, for example? If not, then
                          maybe we should eliminate that part of the discussion?

                          Regards,
                          Mike G.
                        • Paul Lanier
                          Hi Mike, ... This is the first time I have heard that Jn20:2-20 may be a later addition. Of course that doesn t mean it cannot be! But I think going from 20:1
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 3, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Mike,

                            I have several responses:

                            > That is, if those verses [Jn20:2-20] were left out, and we imagine it jumping from verse 1 to verse 21, it would still read smoothly.

                            This is the first time I have heard that Jn20:2-20 may be a later addition. Of course that doesn't mean it cannot be! But I think going from 20:1 directly to 20:21 doesn't work for two reasons. One, the scene shifts from Mary to the disciples. Two, the characters shift from Mary Magdalene (alone) to Jesus with his disciples.

                            There is, I think, a much more important reason for leaving chs 20-21 intact: it illustrates how the author harmonized earlier accounts and added his own. Note here how the author has added the presence of BD ("other disciple") in between the earlier accounts (also, the author does not mention Galilee as the place of meeting between Jesus and the Eleven). So chs.20-21 illustrate how the author establishes the authority of Nathanael/BD in Jerusalem while also trying to harmonize the synoptics. Mark originated the story of meeting in Galilee. That may have been because c.70 CE there were recent inhabitants of Jerusalem who would have challenged a resurrected Jesus in Jerusalem. But by the time Jn20 was composed, no eyewitness remained to challenge a risen Jesus in Jerusalem. Jn21 harmonizes the synoptic accounts of the meeting (Sea of Tiberias/Galilee).

                            1Cor15.5-8
                            Risen Christ appeared to Peter, then to the Twelve, then to over 500 brothers, then to James, then to all the Apostles, then to Paul.

                            Mk16.1-8
                            Mary Magdalene, Mary and Salome told by young man in white to tell disciples and Peter that Jesus is raised and will meet them in Galilee.

                            Mt28.1-20
                            Angel of the Lord announces to the two Marys that Jesus is risen. Jesus meets them, they take hold of his feet, and he instructs them to tell his brothers that he will meet them in Galilee. Jesus meets the Eleven in Galilee.

                            Lk24.1-25
                            Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, other women told by two dazzling men that Jesus is risen. The disciples do not believe them. Peter looks inside the empty tomb. Jesus appears disguised to Ceopas and another on the road to Emmaus. They tell disciples Jesus is risen, and has appeared to Peter. Jesus appears to The Eleven and eats a piece of broiled fish. Jesus leads them to Bethany, where he ascends.

                            Mk16.9-20
                            Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene (Mt). The disciples do not believe her (Lk). Then Jesus appears disguised to two disciples walking in the country (Lk), but the disciples do not believe them. Finally Jesus appears to the Eleven (Mt, Lk), then he ascends.

                            Jn20
                            Mary Magdalene reports empty tomb to Peter (Mk, Lk) and the Other Disciple. The Other Disciple outraces Peter but Peter enters first (Lk). At tomb, Mary meets two angels in white and Jesus (Mt). Jesus instructs Mary to tell his brothers (Mt) that he is ascending. Mary tells disciples (Mk, Mt, Lk). Jesus appears to disciples (minus Thomas) and gives them the Holy Spirit. Eight days later Jesus appears to all disciples (Lk), including Doubting Thomas.

                            Jn21
                            Jesus appears a third time to Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples (one of these seven is the Other Disciple) at the Sea of Tiberias. Jesus feeds them bread and broiled fish (Lk) from their catch.

                            > As far as chapter 21, there's more Peter-vs-BD stuff in there, but nothing anti-Thomas.

                            Because Thomas has been converted to "faith" and "belief" (20:28 "My Lord and my God!"). My speculation here is that by the time ch.21 was appended, the Johannine group had assimilated many from the Thomas community. So they are recognized by rank, between Peter and Nathanael.

                            > So mentioning both chapters 20 and 21, and both characters Peter and Thomas, in the same breath strikes me as a bit confusing.

                            Yes. Ch.21, "the appendix," is thought to be a later addition. Note the natural ending at 20:30-31 ("Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.") and the seam at 21:1 ("after this"). It appears the chief purpose of ch.21 is to rank the founders of various Jesus communities: Peter, Thomas, Nathanael/BD... Note Nathanael is not present in ch.20. Thomas, rehabilitated in ch.20, now ranks between Peter and Nathanael, although BD establishes his superior understanding over Peter at 21:7.


                            > Do you believe it would make Chris' position weaker, for example?
                            I think there may be a basic difference in methodology. I think considering John apart from any other writing robs it of any historical relevance – we know each NT author slanted or created accounts to favor developing doctrinal positions. But this knowledge comes only from analysis of differing or contradictory accounts among several texts. So disallowing this consideration would make it much more difficult to reconstruct histories of competing Jesus movements. Then again, maybe I misunderstand his position.

                            Regards, Paul
                          • Michael Grondin
                            Hi Paul, If you don t mind, I think it best to forego a response to your analysis of the Peter-vs-BD stuff in GJn. As interesting is that is to me, our main
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 4, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Paul,

                              If you don't mind, I think it best to forego a response to your analysis
                              of the Peter-vs-BD stuff in GJn. As interesting is that is to me, our main
                              focus is the same as the focus of Chris' book, which is the analysis of
                              the anti-Thomas stuff. With respect to that, I'm not sure that Chris would
                              agree with you that there was a Thomas group in operation when GJn
                              was written. Pending Chris' response, you might want to consider how
                              you would go about proving that (although I'll stipulate to it here for the
                              sake of seeing what inferences might follow from that assumption.)

                              The question your analysis poses for me is whether, given that there
                              was a Thomas group in existence as you surmise, does the different
                              treatment of Thomas between Jn.20 and Jn.21 indicate that they (or
                              some of them) had returned to the good graces of the Johannine
                              group? Well, of course, it's always possible that some of them did,
                              but it's apparent from all three Thomas writings that the group was in
                              very strong disagreement with Johannine Christians in two areas:

                              (1) That the resurrection wasn't "in the flesh"
                              (2) That the death of Jesus didn't have the theological meaning
                              that the Johannines ascribed to it.

                              Based on the textual evidence of Thomasine writings, I'm not persuaded
                              that the Thomas scene in Jn.20 accurately reflects historical reality. That
                              is to say, I don't think that the bulk of the Thomasines (again, assuming
                              that they were around then) DID come to accept the _physical_
                              resurrection of Jesus. Rather, I think that it was a piece of wishful
                              thinking on the part of the Johannines. Which is not to say that the
                              Johannines never got the Thomasines to say "My Lord and my God!"
                              about Jesus. Maybe they did, but that's a different matter, since even
                              if the Thomasines had accepted such a declaration, their attitude toward
                              physical bodies would have precluded them from associating such a
                              declaration with a physical body, as John has them do in ch.20.

                              If all this is so, then why the apparently-positive reference to Thomas
                              in Jn.21? Well, I don't have a knock-down answer at the ready, but
                              I think it may have something to do with the fact that the group that
                              includes Thomas sets out to do some fishing. I'm serious. Mind you,
                              it isn't normal fishing that's being referenced; rather, it's an allusion
                              to missionary work - "fishing" for Christians, as it were. That given,
                              the group of folks mentioned by name in 21:2 are apparently those
                              Christians (or groups) that the Johannines believed to be or have
                              been prominent in missionary work - whether in Judaea or elsewhere.
                              (Though the Johannine redactors apparently tell these missionaries -
                              through the character Jesus - where to "fish" for converts - off the
                              "right side" of the boat - which may be a recommendation to seek
                              recruits from Jews of the diaspora.)

                              Regards, Mike
                            • Michael Grondin
                              Back on July 27th, when I introduced this topic, I quoted from Michael Bird s blog in parte in re Chris Skinner s book: In this volume Christopher Skinner
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 8, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Back on July 27th, when I introduced this topic, I quoted from
                                Michael Bird's blog in parte in re Chris Skinner's book:

                                "In this volume Christopher Skinner contests the notion that the Fourth
                                Gospel was composed as a polemic against Thomasine Christians or
                                the Gospel of Thomas due to certain readings of John 20.24-28 which
                                are said to reflect [an] inter-community conflict."

                                I didn't pay especially close attention to the wording of this sentence
                                at the time, but some offlist discussions I've had since then have
                                indicated that some clarification may be in order. As far as I know,
                                no one has suggested that "the Fourth Gospel was composed as a
                                polemic against Thomasine Christians or the Gospel of Thomas" if
                                that means (as it seems to) that such a polemic was the primary or
                                even a major reason for composing the Fourth Gospel. What Bird
                                was apparently trying to say was that Riley et al have argued that
                                Jn 20.24-28 (and a couple other verses, but certainly not the whole
                                of the Fourth Gospel) was an anti-Thomasine polemic.

                                What I'd recommend in this discussion is to drop the suggestion
                                of a Thomasine community at the time of GJn. There's simply no
                                evidence for that, and so Chris is quite right to call it 'speculation.'
                                If that premise is insisted upon, we'll surely come to loggerheads
                                before we even get started. The good news is that it isn't even
                                logically necessary to establish or assume that. As I see it, the
                                crux of the matter is the question of whether the attitudes and beliefs
                                attributed to Thomas in GJn reflect Thomasine thinking, as evident
                                in writings titled in that name. In this view, the real issue is whether
                                Jn 20.24-28 may have been written with certain Christians (or
                                Yeshuines, if you will) in mind whose theological ideas were similar
                                to those in evidence within the Thomasine corpus (i.e., The Gospel,
                                Book, and Acts of Thomas). To my mind, talk of a "Thomas
                                Community" of the time just distracts attention from that issue.

                                Cheers,
                                Mike Grondin
                              • jmgcormier
                                In a recent post on the above subject, Mike Grondin makes reference to Michael Bird s Euangelion Blog wherein a commentary / summary is made of Christopher
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 11, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a recent post on the above subject, Mike Grondin makes reference to Michael Bird's "Euangelion" Blog wherein a commentary / summary is made of Christopher Skinner's recent book "John & Thomas - Gospels in Conflict" ...

                                  Having said that, Bird's Blog also makes an interesting commentary / summary of yet another recently published book (called "The Gospel of Thomas: Original Text with Commentary" by Uwe-Karsten Plisch)which seems to make an interesting point about Thomas logion # 68 (one of my all time favorite seemingly muddled Thomasene sayings ...)The point made is that that "Plisch is very circumspect about dating and though he recognizes that logia 68 is post-Bar Kochba revolt etc, etc" ...)

                                  I, too, am very circumspect about dating and am left wondering if anyone on the list has read Plisch's book and might be kind enough to share the dating logics which lead the author to this conclusion about logion #68 postdating the Bar Kochba revolt. Indeed, as a late dater myself I agree with the conclusion but am lost as to how logion 68 can show support for this view.

                                  Coming back to logion 68 itself (Jesus said, "Blessed are you when you are hated and persecuted. Wherever you have been persecuted they will find no Place." ) and its seeming "muddledness", could anyone fluent / proficient in Coptic offer comments on the seemingly corrupt verb tenses in this logion and also corroborate if the oft translated word "wherever" might not better be translated as "whenever"... viz: the last sentence of the logion is not given in the same tense as the first sentence. That is, ("when you are hated" /present tense, or possibly in a figurative sense "future" tense) versus "you have been" persecuted (past tense) and they (unknown / the Romans / the persecuted ????) "will find" no place (future tense). Also, of particular interest, the "wherever" seems out of place, as the reader would seem to expect "whenever" instead (i.e. a "time" statement as opposed to a "place" statement.

                                  Is anyone else dumbfounded by these seeming anomalies ?

                                  Maurice ...
                                • Michael Grondin
                                  Hi Maurice, I m not a Coptic expert, but I guess I m the closest thing we ve got to one here, so I ll try to clear up some of the questions you raise about
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 11, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Maurice,

                                    I'm not a Coptic expert, but I guess I'm the closest thing we've got
                                    to one here, so I'll try to clear up some of the questions you raise
                                    about L.68. Let's start with the sentence you quoted from Bird:

                                    "Plisch is very circumspect about dating and though he recognizes
                                    that logia 68 is post-Bar Kochba revolt, it does not mean that the
                                    whole document is."

                                    Bird used the wrong word here. By saying that Plisch "recognizes" that
                                    L.68 is post-Bar Kochba, he's implying that it's an agreed-upon fact
                                    that L.68 is post-Bar Kochba. Of course, it's no such thing. According
                                    to DeConick (TOGTT, p. 222 - get this book), H.M. Schenke believed
                                    it to be so, but others - DeConick included - date it to the Jewish revolt
                                    of the 60's, when the Christians fled to Pella. I think that the reason why
                                    it's believed that L.68.2 is related to one of these two revolts is that
                                    Jerusalem is assumed to be a place of persecution for Christians,
                                    and in both revolts Jerusalem was left in ruins. After the Bar Kochba
                                    revolt it was in fact renamed, and Jews were forbidden to enter it.
                                    Perhaps that could be seen as favoring the later revolt, since there
                                    was no longer any place called 'Jerusalem', but that hasn't settled
                                    the issue.

                                    > ... could anyone fluent / proficient in Coptic offer comments on the
                                    > seemingly corrupt verb tenses in this logion and also corroborate
                                    > if the oft translated word "wherever" might not better be translated
                                    > as "whenever"...

                                    DeConick implies that a number of Coptic experts think that 68.2 is
                                    corrupt, but not because of the 'wherever'. Although 68.1 says
                                    "You're blest WHEN you're hated", 68.2 has no temporal words in
                                    it. It uses Greek TOPOS and the Coptic equivalent MA - both
                                    designating place, not time.

                                    As to who the 'they' is in "they hate you" and "they persecute you",
                                    these are passive constructions. Since there was no true passive
                                    in Coptic, the passive was expressed by using an unreferenced
                                    'they'. It should be read as "you're hated" and "you're persecuted",
                                    respectively. (There's notes to this effect in my interlinear for L.68)

                                    > ... the last sentence of the logion is not given in the same tense
                                    > as the first sentence. That is, ("when you are hated" /present tense,
                                    > or possibly in a figurative sense "future" tense) versus "you have been"
                                    > persecuted (past tense) and they ... "will find" no place (future tense).

                                    I don't see any problem with two adjacent sentences having different
                                    tenses. I'm pretty sure I could find a lot of examples like that in just
                                    about any written work. Reading it as follows may help:

                                    "Don't worry when you're hated. Remember that wherever you've
                                    been persecuted in the past, that place no longer exists."

                                    Might be a little felt oddity, but not all that badly muddled, I think.

                                    Regards,
                                    Mike
                                  • Michael Grondin
                                    ... Insofar as there may be evidence of a Syriac community founded by the apostle Thomas, I d withdraw my recommendation. But Riley doesn t seem to use that
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 19, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      About ten days ago, I wrote the following:

                                      > What I'd recommend in this discussion is to drop the suggestion
                                      > of a Thomasine community at the time of GJn. There's simply no
                                      > evidence for that ...

                                      Insofar as there may be evidence of a Syriac community founded
                                      by the apostle Thomas, I'd withdraw my recommendation. But Riley
                                      doesn't seem to use that evidence, if there be any. Instead, he seems
                                      to assume that the Gospel of Thomas was around at the time of GJn,
                                      therefore a Thomasine community was around. Point for Skinner.

                                      On the anti-Skinner front, I've looked at the use of the character
                                      Philip in GJn. To my mind, it doesn't compare in negativity with
                                      the use of Thomas. "Uncomprehending character" (Skinner's phrase)
                                      is one thing, but "unbelieving character" is another. Riley observes
                                      that although Gos.John uses the verb "to believe" over 90 times,
                                      the word 'apistos' ('unbelieving'/'unfaithful') is used only of Thomas.

                                      What the Johannine writers did to John the Baptist may be relevant.
                                      That there _was_ a JB community around at the time seems certain.
                                      Yet the Johannines put words into the mouth of JB that he never
                                      uttered, and which his followers would have strongly disavowed.
                                      Similarly, I doubt whether those nominal Christians who didn't believe
                                      in physical resurrection were much moved or pleased by the "doubting
                                      Thomas" scene. Annoyed and insulted is probably more like it.

                                      All in all, I think the John-Thomas debate is a good one. It has many
                                      interesting facets to it that will no doubt be explored as we proceed,
                                      probably well into September. The most important background
                                      reading seems to be Riley's and Skinner's books, but we'll get
                                      together a more comprehensive list when I get back from San
                                      Antonio (19th-24th).

                                      Best to all,
                                      Mike Grondin
                                    • Christopher Skinner
                                      Mike wrote: To my mind, it doesn t compare in negativity with the use of Thomas. Uncomprehending character (Skinner s phrase) is one thing, but
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 19, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Mike wrote: "To my mind, it doesn't compare in negativity with the use of
                                        Thomas. "Uncomprehending character" (Skinner's phrase) is one thing, but
                                        "unbelieving character" is another. Riley observes that although Gos.John
                                        uses the verb "to believe" over 90 times, the word 'apistos'
                                        ('unbelieving'/'unfaithful') is used only of Thomas."

                                        Again, I want to point out that such data, taken on its own can seem
                                        impressive in favor of the community-conflict hypothesis. But, when we
                                        undertake a more thorough examination of the Fourth Gospel, this point seems
                                        less weighty. While I can appreciate the significance of this being the only
                                        explicit use of the word "apistos" applied to a character in the Fourth
                                        Gospel, Thomas is not the only character to display "unbelief." In fact,
                                        embedded in my use of the phrase "uncomprehending character" is a given
                                        character's consistent failure to grasp the Fourth Gospel's presentation of
                                        Jesus' message and mission as revealed, initially, in the Prologue (1:1-18)
                                        and built upon thereafter. This means that even though other characters are
                                        not explicitly referred to as "unbelieving,' the overall presentation of
                                        uncomprehending characters includes an element failing to exercise what is
                                        deemed "proper Johannine faith." This is true of disciples and even
                                        non-disciples like Nicodemus (who confesses Jesus as a "teacher from God")
                                        and Martha (who confesses, "I have always believed [intensive perfect of
                                        Greek *pisteuo*] that you are the Christ, the son of God, coming into the
                                        world). Thus, my point is this: it is not necessary for every
                                        uncomprehending character to be called "apistos" for the reader to
                                        understand that those characters have not exercised proper belief (that is,
                                        belief according to Johannine standards).

                                        I hope that at least clarifies my position a little better.

                                        Regards,

                                        Chris Skinner


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Michael Grondin
                                        Thanks, Chris. I look forward to more discussions after I get back from San Antonio and get a chance to read your book. Best wishes, Mike
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 19, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks, Chris. I look forward to more discussions after I get
                                          back from San Antonio and get a chance to read your book.

                                          Best wishes,
                                          Mike
                                        • Michael Grondin
                                          Came across a couple of interesting reviews of April DeConick s _Voices of the Mystics: Early Christian Discourse in the Gospels of John and Thomas and Other
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 27, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Came across a couple of interesting reviews of April DeConick's
                                            _Voices of the Mystics: Early Christian Discourse in the Gospels
                                            of John and Thomas and Other Ancient Christian Literature_.
                                            According to the more negative of the two reviews:

                                            "DeConick argues that "the Johannine author creates the Synthetic
                                            End Point, faith mysticism, in response to vision mysticism promoted
                                            by the Thomasine Christians" (p 127). This makes sense to her, does it?
                                            The Johannine author had to invent faith as a way to fight back against
                                            the Thomas group? No one had heard of faith before in Paul's time, say?"

                                            Of course, once one looks at this criticism carefully, it becomes
                                            apparent that its superficial effectiveness is based on the fallacy of
                                            equivocation - in this case, of equating "faith mysticism" with "faith"
                                            simpliciter. The reviewer (who is obviously not sympathetic to
                                            DeConick) gets some other things wrong as well, but still his review
                                            and the other one (which is more positive) are worth reading, I think,
                                            to get some feel for what DeConick wrote in a book which is relevant
                                            to the Riley-Skinner debate, but which most folks (including myself)
                                            haven't read.

                                            http://www.amazon.com/Voices-Mystics-Academic-Paperback-Deconick/product-reviews/0567081281/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

                                            Mike Grondin
                                          • Michael Grondin
                                            Sorry, it s not the fallacy of equivocation. It s another fallacy which is related to it by being the opposite side of the same coin. The fallacy of
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 27, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Sorry, it's not the fallacy of equivocation. It's another fallacy which
                                              is related to it by being the opposite side of the same coin. The
                                              fallacy of equivocation is the use of the same word (or phrase) in
                                              two different senses in the same argument. The fallacy that the reviewer
                                              committed is the use of two different words (or phrases) in the same
                                              argument as if they had the same meaning, when in fact they don't.
                                              (This is a common form of fallacious argument, but I don't know the
                                              technical name of it.)

                                              Mike G.
                                            • ianbrown6796
                                              Michael, I have followed this thread with great interest for the past few weeks and am happy to have the opportunity to contribute something that may hopefully
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 28, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Michael,

                                                I have followed this thread with great interest for the past few weeks and am happy to have the opportunity to contribute something that may hopefully be of some use. DeConick's 2007 Thomas monograph and her 2008 commentary are what really got me interested in GosThom, so when I was still on my DeConick bender I also read _Voices of the Mystics_ (VoM). While I have since drifted away from the theoretical position DeConick takes in the book, I think it is still well worth the read (and isn't too expensive, around $25 used on amazon). For the most part I agree with the way she approaches intertextuality and diversity in early Christianities, even if I don't agree with her conclusions. In my eyes VoM does not draw on a sufficient amount of evidence to conclude that the Gospel of John was not only aware of, but was written as a polemic against, the Gospel of Thomas. The doubting Thomas scene functions just as well as a rhetorical example within the Gospel of John, and there doesn't seem need to posit an inter-gospel dialogue to explain it. Additionally, if we understand the attribution of the Gospel of Thomas to Thomas (and therefore the prologue) as being a relatively late accretion (which DeConick herself does, dating it as late as 120 CE, see _Recovering the Original Gospel of Thomas_ page 98) then we begin to encounter difficulties with the relative dating of John in relation to Thomas. Dating aside, my biggest issue with DeConick's thesis revolves around the rhetoric of Thomas as opposed to the rhetoric of John. I understand Thomas along similar lines that William Arnal and John Kloppenborg understand Q: a document of scribal origin whose rhetorical polemic is aimed primarily against the changing economic relationships that have been brought on by Roman economic expansion. I conclude in agreement with Arnal's 1995 essay, "The Rhetoric of Marginality," arguing that "there are grounds, then, for comparing the Gospel of Thomas and Q [or in our case, John] on the basis of their social characteristics rather than their literary or theological features" (494). Thus while I agree with DeConick that intertextuality is very important in the study of early Christianities, I think that comparisons based on social, rather than theological, characteristics are more helpful.

                                                Ian
                                              • Michael Grondin
                                                Hi Ian, I hope you won t hesitate to send your further thoughts to the list. There s always something in what an informed person writes that sparks others to
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 28, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi Ian,

                                                  I hope you won't hesitate to send your further thoughts to the list.
                                                  There's always something in what an informed person writes that
                                                  sparks others to think and respond. A couple of things that piqued
                                                  my interest:

                                                  > ... if we understand the attribution of the Gospel of Thomas to Thomas
                                                  > (and therefore the prologue) as being a relatively late accretion (which
                                                  > DeConick herself does, dating it as late as 120 CE, see _Recovering
                                                  > the Original Gospel of Thomas_ page 98) then we begin to encounter
                                                  > difficulties with the relative dating of John in relation to Thomas.

                                                  Yes, I see that DeConick dates both references to Thomas (viz., the
                                                  Incipit and L.13) to 80-120. I'm not sure of the import of this. On the
                                                  one hand, it might seem that the work could hardly have been called
                                                  "The Gospel of Thomas" when it was (supposedly) at a stage where
                                                  Thomas wasn't mentioned, but on the other hand we do have gospels
                                                  (Luke, Mark) where the attributed author isn't mentioned in the text.
                                                  Maybe what DeConick was thinking was that the original kernel of
                                                  Thomas was already associated with that name, even though the
                                                  text didn't yet contain any references to him.

                                                  > ... while I agree with DeConick that intertextuality is very important in
                                                  > the study of early Christianities, I think that comparisons based on
                                                  > social, rather than theological, characteristics are more helpful.

                                                  To me, the two go hand-in-glove, both historically and analytically.
                                                  To my way of thinking, theology is/was the hand-maiden of socio-
                                                  political considerations. Making a heavenly necessity out of earthly
                                                  longings, as it were. One of the intellectual slogans of the time was
                                                  "as above, so below", but the actuality seems to have been rather
                                                  that "as (we want it to be) below, so (it must be) above".

                                                  The problem for us, however, is that the theology of a given group
                                                  is explicit in its texts, but the socio-political status usually isn't. So
                                                  what do we do? Try to read the latter through the prism of the former,
                                                  or turn to some external tool like "the social approach"? One of the
                                                  problems I see with that approach is that it focuses (of necessity) on
                                                  large groups, so that the kind and scope of socio-political generalities
                                                  it typically produces may very well not apply to smaller groups in special
                                                  circumstances. In particular, the perceived status of small text-producing
                                                  groups - which is exactly what we're interested in. So while the "social
                                                  approach" might be helpful if it worked, I tend to think of it as a rather
                                                  clumsy macro-tool that doesn't work well at the micro-level needed.

                                                  Regards,
                                                  Mike
                                                • ianbrown6796
                                                  Hi Mike, Thanks for the reply. ... I agree with you that is possible (even likely) that the Thomasine community attributed their gospel to the disciple Thomas
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Aug 28, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi Mike,

                                                    Thanks for the reply.

                                                    You wrote:
                                                    > Maybe what DeConick was thinking was that the original kernel of
                                                    > Thomas was already associated with that name, even though the
                                                    > text didn't yet contain any references to him.

                                                    I agree with you that is possible (even likely) that the Thomasine community attributed their gospel to the disciple Thomas before the gospel was so named. I guess what I was trying to convey was that the point you raise should have been more clearly defended, rather than relying on the Gospel's name-sake.

                                                    You wrote:
                                                    > To me, the two go hand-in-glove, both historically and analytically.
                                                    > To my way of thinking, theology is/was the hand-maiden of socio-
                                                    > political considerations. Making a heavenly necessity out of earthly
                                                    > longings, as it were. One of the intellectual slogans of the time was
                                                    > "as above, so below", but the actuality seems to have been rather
                                                    > that "as (we want it to be) below, so (it must be) above".

                                                    To this I would respond that yes, I agree that theology and social situations are intimately tied to each other, but I think there is a limit to its usefulness. For example: when we are looking at the theology of GosThom alongside the theology of GosJohn I don't see this approach being as helpful, specifically in the way DeConick utilizes it. When the argument is raised that two documents share certain theological inclinations, we can pursue that argument by asking what the social conditions may have been that made these theological claims attractive to that group. Conversely if the argument is raised that two documents exhibit contradictory theological inclinations (as is argued for GosThom and GosJohn) then we can go on to ask whether or not the social conditions that made opposing the theological claims attractive to each groups may well have been opposing social conditions. I don't think this is the case with GosThom and GosJohn. Here it seems to me that the theological differences can be better explained by analyzing the social conditions of each group, rather than by hypothesizing an inter-gospel debate over proper soteriological understanding of Jesus.

                                                    You wrote:
                                                    > The problem for us, however, is that the theology of a given group
                                                    > is explicit in its texts, but the socio-political status usually isn't.
                                                    > Try to read the latter through the prism of the former,
                                                    > or turn to some external tool like "the social approach"? One of the
                                                    > problems I see with that approach is that it focuses (of necessity) on
                                                    > large groups, so that the kind and scope of socio-political generalities
                                                    > it typically produces may very well not apply to smaller groups in special
                                                    > circumstances.

                                                    I would have to disagree. I don't think we can excavate anything explicit from the Gospels. While I appreciate the fact that biblical studies has many wonderful tools with which we can use to analyze our primary sources, the fact of the matter is these tools barely scratch the surface of the world in which these texts were produced. I my mind we need external tools such as: literary criticism, post-colonial theory, critical theory, sociology, archaeology, feminist theory, and so on in order to shed new light on these texts. I share your concern that essentializing groups along theoretical lines set by us in the present isn't helpful, but I would argue that categorization and some degree of generalization can be very helpful in making new insights into ancient texts. Perhaps you could clarify for me your below statement,

                                                    > In particular, the perceived status of small text-producing
                                                    > groups - which is exactly what we're interested in. So while the "social
                                                    > approach" might be helpful if it worked, I tend to think of it as a rather
                                                    > clumsy macro-tool that doesn't work well at the micro-level needed.

                                                    I don't think you are saying that the Thomasine community is so utterly unique that we cannot use any other tools to examine it and its gospel. But it does seem to me that you are limiting your tools of analysis, whereas my philosophy would be "the more tools the better."

                                                    Sorry I quoted so much of your last post, but it was very thought provoking and I wanted to treat each part of it as fairly as I could.

                                                    Ian
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.