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Letter & Word Counts Again

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  • Michael Grondin
    A couple of miscellaneous points on this subject: 1. In my previous note, I mentioned the following numbers: (a) 16800 (number of letters in CGTh, minus 49-51)
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 16, 2009
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      A couple of miscellaneous points on this subject:

      1. In my previous note, I mentioned the following numbers:
      (a) 16800 (number of letters in CGTh, minus 49-51)
      (b) 2400 (number of letters in Greek words and names)
      (c) 14400 (a-b)

      Unfortunately, I missed what is apparently the most important
      relationship between (b) and (c), namely that (c) is six times (b).
      What it looks like the Copts did, then, was to regard the basic
      size of their text (other than the so-far mysterious 49-51) as
      7x2400 letters, with one-seventh of them devoted to Greek words
      and names. Obviously, this required an extraordinary degree
      of carefulness not apparent from simply reading the text.

      Now counting letters is tedious business prone to error, and so my
      guess would be that it was designed in chunks, the size of which
      could be much more easily checked than the whole. Perhaps the
      chunks were the 24 text blocks I've mentioned before, but some
      of them are pretty big (in the 80+ lines range), and thus not particularly
      well-suited to letter-count checking, unless they contain some divisions
      not readily apparent. In the alternative, I suppose that the sayings could
      be the chunks, but I tend to think that it would have been too difficult
      to check the counts that way, since many of the sayings start and
      end somewhere within the body of a line. Chunks with split lines
      wouldn't seem to be a particularly good way to do it. Hopefully, we'll
      be able to come up with a likely counting-unit somewhere along the
      line.

      On a different matter, one caveat on the above counts. Someone
      might easily assume that, since 2400 of the letters in CGTh are
      contained in Greek words and names, the other 14400 must be
      contained in _Coptic_ words separate from those Greek words.
      Not so. Many of the phrases involving Greek also employ Coptic
      helper-morphemes, such as the word 'the' in 'Jacob the Righteous'.
      That's simply the letter 'p', which was used with masculine nouns
      used definitely - whether the noun itself was Greek or Coptic. Such
      "helpers" are _not_ included in the 2400 count. Of course, it might
      be interesting to find out how many letters there are in these "helpers",
      but so far that hasn't been done. (I would obviously be delighted if the
      number was a nice neat one, but I think that's expecting too much.)

      As usual, comments and questions invited.

      Cheers,
      Mike Grondin
      Mt. Clemens, MI
    • Rick Hubbard
      Hi Mike It strikes me that I am way behind the curve on a great deal of this entire matter. Nevertheless I ll comment on a couple of things, beginning with the
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 17, 2009
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        Hi Mike

        It strikes me that I am way behind the curve on a great deal of this entire
        matter. Nevertheless I'll comment on a couple of things, beginning with the
        problematic Greek EI MH TI, or EIMHTI, or whatever the construction might
        turn out to be. From what I can determine, EI MH is used some 85 times in
        the GNT (NA 27) while the construction EI MHTI shows up in only 3 places: Lk
        9.13, ICor 7.5 and IICor 13.5 so it seems to be a not commonly used
        formation. But, I agree with you. Regardless of how the formation is used in
        Greek texts, the more relevant question is how it is used in Coptic texts so
        maybe Horner is "right" in his rendering.

        With respect to counting words in CGth I concede that my efforts here appear
        to be, in effect, "reinventing the wheel" since you have already expended
        enormous efforts on the same undertaking. Word counts are something of a
        by-product of a slightly different approach- I am looking for **patterns**
        and as part of that process It is necessary to also count words. I should
        report that I have indeed been able to identify (on a rudimentary basis)
        word patterns although I also admit that the process needs much refinement.
        It was this approach that prompted my earlier question about N6I since the
        way words are assembled has some bearing on patterns (at least the way I'm
        currently doing it).

        Rick Hubbard

        ||-----Original Message-----
        ||From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On
        ||Behalf Of Michael Grondin
        ||Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 4:09 AM
        ||To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
        ||Subject: [GTh] Letter & Word Counts Again
        ||
        ||
        ||
        ||A couple of miscellaneous points on this subject:
        ||
        ||1. In my previous note, I mentioned the following numbers:
        ||(a) 16800 (number of letters in CGTh, minus 49-51)
        ||(b) 2400 (number of letters in Greek words and names)
        ||(c) 14400 (a-b)
        ||
        ||Unfortunately, I missed what is apparently the most important
        ||relationship between (b) and (c), namely that (c) is six times (b).
        ||What it looks like the Copts did, then, was to regard the basic
        ||size of their text (other than the so-far mysterious 49-51) as
        ||7x2400 letters, with one-seventh of them devoted to Greek words
        ||and names. Obviously, this required an extraordinary degree
        ||of carefulness not apparent from simply reading the text.
        ||
        ||Now counting letters is tedious business prone to error, and so my
        ||guess would be that it was designed in chunks, the size of which
        ||could be much more easily checked than the whole. Perhaps the
        ||chunks were the 24 text blocks I've mentioned before, but some
        ||of them are pretty big (in the 80+ lines range), and thus not particularly
        ||well-suited to letter-count checking, unless they contain some divisions
        ||not readily apparent. In the alternative, I suppose that the sayings could
        ||be the chunks, but I tend to think that it would have been too difficult
        ||to check the counts that way, since many of the sayings start and
        ||end somewhere within the body of a line. Chunks with split lines
        ||wouldn't seem to be a particularly good way to do it. Hopefully, we'll
        ||be able to come up with a likely counting-unit somewhere along the
        ||line.
        ||
        ||On a different matter, one caveat on the above counts. Someone
        ||might easily assume that, since 2400 of the letters in CGTh are
        ||contained in Greek words and names, the other 14400 must be
        ||contained in _Coptic_ words separate from those Greek words.
        ||Not so. Many of the phrases involving Greek also employ Coptic
        ||helper-morphemes, such as the word 'the' in 'Jacob the Righteous'.
        ||That's simply the letter 'p', which was used with masculine nouns
        ||used definitely - whether the noun itself was Greek or Coptic. Such
        ||"helpers" are _not_ included in the 2400 count. Of course, it might
        ||be interesting to find out how many letters there are in these "helpers",
        ||but so far that hasn't been done. (I would obviously be delighted if the
        ||number was a nice neat one, but I think that's expecting too much.)
        ||
        ||As usual, comments and questions invited.
        ||
        ||Cheers,
        ||Mike Grondin
        ||Mt. Clemens, MI
        ||
        ||
        ||
        ||
      • Michael Grondin
        Hi Rick- Thanks for the info on EIMHTI. Please don t get discouraged that you re behind the curve , as you say. That s unavoidable, since I ve been working on
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 17, 2009
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          Hi Rick-

          Thanks for the info on EIMHTI. Please don't get discouraged that you're
          "behind the curve", as you say. That's unavoidable, since I've been
          working on this stuff for twenty years. But at the same time, I learn new
          new things every time I interact with yourself and others. That interaction
          gets my mind working and all of a sudden something new comes up.
          It's a tough problem, but well worth the effort, I think, for a variety of
          reasons. We are really getting inside the minds of the Copts who put
          CGTh together, and if we can figure out what they did, it may well
          reveal what GTh looked like before they got their hands on it. That in
          turn will impact on a number of questions that hordes of scholars
          seem more interested in - and the answers given to which are far
          less probable than our results. (Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but
          I have in mind to write next week about a strong textual indication that
          "Give me what is mine" has been added to a saying that exhibits a
          remarkable structure without it. Of course, a lot of folks have _felt_ that
          that clause was added to the original saying, but a study of the number
          and arrangement of letters in that saying, as it appears in CGTh, seems
          to me to provide concrete evidence for that hunch - which of course is
          far better than the hunch alone.)

          With respect to counting words in CGTh, my understanding is that you're
          doing something I've never done, and I think it's promising. What's always
          stopped me is uncertainty as to what constitutes a "word" in Coptic, but I
          think you're bypassing that logical difficulty and going straight to the
          heart of the matter. Please keep us posted if anything comes of it.
          I'd just add this word of advice: if your result is _close_ to, say, an
          even multiple of hundreds or thousands, suspect that the nice number
          is the true result, and that it's just being thrown off by some glitch in
          the data. That's how I came up with the 500 figure for Greek words and
          names, and that really is the scientific method as I understand it, i.e.,
          that if the result of an experiment deviates only slightly from the
          expected result, then the theory is probably correct and the deviation
          probably comes from slight imperfections in the way the experiment
          was conducted, or in measurement.

          Cheers,
          Mike
        • Rick Hubbard
          Greetings Mike- Thanks for the words of encouragement. I predict I will appreciate them more as time rolls along, especially in light of my initial attempt to
          Message 4 of 4 , Jul 19, 2009
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            Greetings Mike-

            Thanks for the words of encouragement. I predict I will appreciate them more
            as time rolls along, especially in light of my initial attempt to do some
            computer analysis of the text. To wit:

            I began my investigation by looking for patterns of construction involving
            groups of five words where the middle word contained 3 letters then counting
            the number of letters in the 2 words that precede and follow each middle
            term. I was hoping to see some recurrent pattern such as 9-6-3-6-9 (just as
            an example). The first run generated 417 hits and, if you can believe this,
            there was not ONE SINGLE DUPLICATE (much less any intriguing pattern).

            Now I'm not a statistician by any definition of the word, but this seems
            almost inconceivable to me so I therefore wonder if a), something is haywire
            with the algorithm of b), if the digital text I'm working with is really
            kludged up.

            In any case, I'll keep pecking away at this as time permits and eventually
            we should be able to reach some kind of conclusion.

            Rick

            ||-----Original Message-----
            ||From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On
            ||Behalf Of Michael Grondin
            ||Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 4:10 PM
            ||To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            ||Subject: Re: [GTh] Letter & Word Counts Again
            ||
            ||
            ||
            ||Hi Rick-
            ||
            ||Thanks for the info on EIMHTI. Please don't get discouraged that you're
            ||"behind the curve", as you say. That's unavoidable, since I've been
            ||working on this stuff for twenty years. But at the same time, I learn new
            ||new things every time I interact with yourself and others. That
            interaction
            ||gets my mind working and all of a sudden something new comes up.
            ||It's a tough problem, but well worth the effort, I think, for a variety of
            ||reasons. We are really getting inside the minds of the Copts who put
            ||CGTh together, and if we can figure out what they did, it may well
            ||reveal what GTh looked like before they got their hands on it. That in
            ||turn will impact on a number of questions that hordes of scholars
            ||seem more interested in - and the answers given to which are far
            ||less probable than our results. (Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but
            ||I have in mind to write next week about a strong textual indication that
            ||"Give me what is mine" has been added to a saying that exhibits a
            ||remarkable structure without it. Of course, a lot of folks have _felt_
            that
            ||that clause was added to the original saying, but a study of the number
            ||and arrangement of letters in that saying, as it appears in CGTh, seems
            ||to me to provide concrete evidence for that hunch - which of course is
            ||far better than the hunch alone.)
            ||
            ||With respect to counting words in CGTh, my understanding is that you're
            ||doing something I've never done, and I think it's promising. What's always
            ||stopped me is uncertainty as to what constitutes a "word" in Coptic, but I
            ||think you're bypassing that logical difficulty and going straight to the
            ||heart of the matter. Please keep us posted if anything comes of it.
            ||I'd just add this word of advice: if your result is _close_ to, say, an
            ||even multiple of hundreds or thousands, suspect that the nice number
            ||is the true result, and that it's just being thrown off by some glitch in
            ||the data. That's how I came up with the 500 figure for Greek words and
            ||names, and that really is the scientific method as I understand it, i.e.,
            ||that if the result of an experiment deviates only slightly from the
            ||expected result, then the theory is probably correct and the deviation
            ||probably comes from slight imperfections in the way the experiment
            ||was conducted, or in measurement.
            ||
            ||Cheers,
            ||Mike
            ||
            ||
            ||
            ||
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