Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [GTh] Re: GTh2 and GHeb

Expand Messages
  • Steven Ring
    Hi Mike, Nevertheless just as I describe, there are tantalizing links between the Syriac saying and the GT saying visible from the Syriac studies and
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 14, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Mike,

      Nevertheless just as I describe, there are tantalizing links between the
      Syriac saying and the GT saying visible from the Syriac studies and
      translation-effects points of view.

      Another thought on this issue arises from an even more sceptical
      position: The Syriac saying I cite is not found in the canonical
      gospels, so this would also call into question whether the saying found
      in the Liber Graduum was ever spoken by Christ or written in any gospel.
      However, the Syriac form of the teaching in the sense, 'As you are
      found, so shall you live' is corroborated by a rather detailed
      application of it written by Paul, see 1 Cor7v20-24. Again, reading the
      context of the third occurrence of this saying (Kitchen & Parmentier p.
      142), it is written there, 'then let us listen to what our Lord said,
      'as you were found, so shall you live'.' Hence, if a form of the Syriac
      saying cited in the Liber Graduum was indeed spoken by Christ and
      originally written in a gospel known to Paul, then it must have been
      removed later, after Paul. Variance and misunderstanding in translation
      is much more likely where a source text is either unpopular, or
      difficult to understand, or both. In these circumstances a translator
      will attempt to re-interpret, or estimate the meaning of his source and
      this is how this saying in the GT and Clement comes across to me.

      If as you say, other commentators have already spotted connections
      between some parts of the Liber Graduum and sayings in the GT, then from
      a source-critical point of view, this would make it more likely that
      other connections exist. Hence, the existence of other connections
      between the Liber Graduum and GT only increases the probability that
      these two particular sayings are also linked. Then, since the features
      of this Syriac saying can explain features in a longer GT saying, a
      text-critical deduction would be that the GT saying is probably derived
      from the Syriac one.

      Looking at the wider (non-GT related) issues here, it is interesting to
      note how the eastern Syriac-speaking tradition preserves fragments of
      gospel text which were erased very early on, in the western Christian
      tradition. This is not the only case of a western erasure being
      preserved in the Syriac tradition, and my paper will describe some
      important examples of this phenomena.

      Best wishes,
      Steven Ring.

      Michael Grondin wrote:
      > > 49.26 - p. 25 'As you shall be found, so you shall be taken'
      > > 52.7-8 - p. 25 'As you are found in victory, so you shall be taken,
      > > wearing your wreath'
      > > 344.15 - p. 142 'As you are found, so shall you live'
      > Hi Stevan,
      > Even given your analysis, it appears that there's at most two
      > words in common between GTh.2 and any of the above lines.
      > In addition, the above statements concentrate on the agent
      > being found (presumably by God), while the agent in GTh.2
      > is doing the active seeking and finding. If one thought came
      > from the other, it seems that there must have been a significant
      > development in thinking in between. In any case, there's enough
      > difference, I think, that it's questionable whether these are true
      > parallels. (Note that DeConick used Liber Graduum for TOGTT
      > and found some parallels, but not for GTh.2.)
      > That's my take, anyway.
      > Best regards,
      > Mike Grondin
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1671 - Release Date: 14/09/2008 07:16
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.