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[GTh] Re: GTh2 and GHeb

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  • Steven Ring
    I don t know if it matters to this discussion particularly but this logion also appears in the Syriac tradition in a different, and arguably earlier form. It
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 12, 2008
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      I don't know if it matters to this discussion particularly but this
      logion also appears in the Syriac tradition in a different, and
      arguably earlier form. It is quoted three times in the 4th century
      anonymous Syriac work, 'The book of steps' or 'Liber Graduum'. The
      Syriac text of the book of steps was published with a Latin
      translation in 1926 by M. Kmosko.

      The (possibly) interesting things about the Syriac quote are 1) that
      it is more compact and 2) different translations and mutations of the
      same few Syriac words can explain several features found in the longer
      Clement and GT versions, (hence using the usual TC rules, the Syriac
      may be the source).

      The Book of Steps was translated into English recently by Kitchen and
      Parmentier in 2004, ISBN 0-87907-696-8

      The three quotes are:
      Kmosko Columns.lines - Kitchen and Parmentier page
      49.26 - p. 25 'As you shall be found, so you shall be taken'
      52.7-8 - p. 25 'As you are found in victory, so you shall be taken,
      wearing your wreath'
      344.15 - p. 142 'As you are found, so shall you live'

      ANALYSIS:
      The Syriac ethpa`el verb 'ethdamar' = 'to be amazed' of Clement's
      version and the GT is very similar on the page to the ethpa`el verb
      'ethdabar' = 'to be led' or 'to be taken'. The difference is only a
      very slight jot of the pen to mistake the letter meem for the letter
      beth. This may account for the words, 'be amazed' in Clement and the
      GT. Again, the underlying Syriac pa`el verb 'dabar' means 'to rule'
      which is also found in Clement's version and the GT.

      Any thoughts? (I do not have Klijn's book)

      Best regards,
      Steven Ring.

      --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lanier" <jpaullanier@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you very much, Kevin, for your post on Klijn's analysis of L 2.
      > I have been reflecting on it a great deal. I am responding with what I
      > have on it so far.
      >
      > > Klijn breaks down all four versions of the saying (the two in
      > Clement, P. Oxy 654, and Coptic Thomas logion 2) and shows, in the
      > process, how Coptic Thomas deviates from the other versions.
      >
      >
    • Michael Grondin
      ... Hi Stevan, Even given your analysis, it appears that there s at most two words in common between GTh.2 and any of the above lines. In addition, the above
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 13, 2008
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        > 49.26 - p. 25 'As you shall be found, so you shall be taken'
        > 52.7-8 - p. 25 'As you are found in victory, so you shall be taken,
        > wearing your wreath'
        > 344.15 - p. 142 'As you are found, so shall you live'

        Hi Stevan,

        Even given your analysis, it appears that there's at most two
        words in common between GTh.2 and any of the above lines.
        In addition, the above statements concentrate on the agent
        being found (presumably by God), while the agent in GTh.2
        is doing the active seeking and finding. If one thought came
        from the other, it seems that there must have been a significant
        development in thinking in between. In any case, there's enough
        difference, I think, that it's questionable whether these are true
        parallels. (Note that DeConick used Liber Graduum for TOGTT
        and found some parallels, but not for GTh.2.)
        That's my take, anyway.

        Best regards,
        Mike Grondin
      • Steven Ring
        Hi Mike, Nevertheless just as I describe, there are tantalizing links between the Syriac saying and the GT saying visible from the Syriac studies and
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 14, 2008
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          Hi Mike,

          Nevertheless just as I describe, there are tantalizing links between the
          Syriac saying and the GT saying visible from the Syriac studies and
          translation-effects points of view.

          Another thought on this issue arises from an even more sceptical
          position: The Syriac saying I cite is not found in the canonical
          gospels, so this would also call into question whether the saying found
          in the Liber Graduum was ever spoken by Christ or written in any gospel.
          However, the Syriac form of the teaching in the sense, 'As you are
          found, so shall you live' is corroborated by a rather detailed
          application of it written by Paul, see 1 Cor7v20-24. Again, reading the
          context of the third occurrence of this saying (Kitchen & Parmentier p.
          142), it is written there, 'then let us listen to what our Lord said,
          'as you were found, so shall you live'.' Hence, if a form of the Syriac
          saying cited in the Liber Graduum was indeed spoken by Christ and
          originally written in a gospel known to Paul, then it must have been
          removed later, after Paul. Variance and misunderstanding in translation
          is much more likely where a source text is either unpopular, or
          difficult to understand, or both. In these circumstances a translator
          will attempt to re-interpret, or estimate the meaning of his source and
          this is how this saying in the GT and Clement comes across to me.

          If as you say, other commentators have already spotted connections
          between some parts of the Liber Graduum and sayings in the GT, then from
          a source-critical point of view, this would make it more likely that
          other connections exist. Hence, the existence of other connections
          between the Liber Graduum and GT only increases the probability that
          these two particular sayings are also linked. Then, since the features
          of this Syriac saying can explain features in a longer GT saying, a
          text-critical deduction would be that the GT saying is probably derived
          from the Syriac one.

          Looking at the wider (non-GT related) issues here, it is interesting to
          note how the eastern Syriac-speaking tradition preserves fragments of
          gospel text which were erased very early on, in the western Christian
          tradition. This is not the only case of a western erasure being
          preserved in the Syriac tradition, and my paper will describe some
          important examples of this phenomena.

          Best wishes,
          Steven Ring.

          Michael Grondin wrote:
          >
          > > 49.26 - p. 25 'As you shall be found, so you shall be taken'
          > > 52.7-8 - p. 25 'As you are found in victory, so you shall be taken,
          > > wearing your wreath'
          > > 344.15 - p. 142 'As you are found, so shall you live'
          >
          > Hi Stevan,
          >
          > Even given your analysis, it appears that there's at most two
          > words in common between GTh.2 and any of the above lines.
          > In addition, the above statements concentrate on the agent
          > being found (presumably by God), while the agent in GTh.2
          > is doing the active seeking and finding. If one thought came
          > from the other, it seems that there must have been a significant
          > development in thinking in between. In any case, there's enough
          > difference, I think, that it's questionable whether these are true
          > parallels. (Note that DeConick used Liber Graduum for TOGTT
          > and found some parallels, but not for GTh.2.)
          > That's my take, anyway.
          >
          > Best regards,
          > Mike Grondin
          >
          >
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