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Possible Muslim related GoT Source Material

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  • jmgcormier
    Greetings All … A short while ago while surfing blogs on the Gospel of Thomas, I came onto a site which claimed … according to a scholarly priest at the
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 20, 2008
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      Greetings All …

      A short while ago while surfing blogs on the Gospel of
      Thomas, I came onto a site which claimed " … according to a
      scholarly priest at the Catholic Church we went to in Dallas (Texas)
      … (this) particular Catholic priest had been granted access to some
      of the gospels that were discovered in the Middle East that have
      since been locked up by the Muslims … (and) he thinks that once
      these texts are released, Christians are going to have to question a
      lot of long held beliefs." No further explanation was offered
      about the texts by the blogger.

      Other than the gospel source material found in Tarif
      Khalidi's The Muslim Jesus, does anyone on the list have any idea of
      possible Muslim sources for material which could be taken as being
      from Jesus or from a Gospel of Thomas slant? … in short,
      what "Middle East gospels" could the above blogger have been talking
      about. I recall reading somewhere that there are / were two
      versions of a / the Gospel of Barnabas, of which one supposedly is
      of Muslim origins (Andrew or Stephen Carlson might know of this)
      but I would be interested to know if there is yet other early
      readily available Muslim (gospel related)material which list members
      might know of as well ???

      Cheers, Maurice
    • David Hindley
      Maurice, From the sound of it, the web author seems to be thinking of mss discovered by Muslims (maybe both professional and Bedouin) but not disclosed.
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 20, 2008
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        Maurice,

        From the sound of it, the web author seems to be thinking of mss discovered by Muslims (maybe both professional and Bedouin) but not
        disclosed. Presumably, unauthorized digs in Egypt would be the source(s) of anything like this. Certainly not finds near the Dead
        Sea.

        Like you noted, stories about Jesus or his disciples known to be in Muslim hadith or such have been well documented for a long time
        now. Maybe the web author or his source was previously not aware of them and found their contents quite different than what he
        expected.

        Respectfully,

        Dave Hindley
        Newton Falls, Ohio USA


        -----Original Message-----
        From: sentto-1127921-8018-1216552973-dhindley=compuserve.com@...
        [mailto:sentto-1127921-8018-1216552973-dhindley=compuserve.com@...] On Behalf Of jmgcormier
        Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 7:23 AM
        To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [GTh] Possible Muslim related GoT Source Material


        Greetings All ...

        A short while ago while surfing blogs on the Gospel of Thomas, I came onto a site which claimed " ... according to a
        scholarly priest at the Catholic Church we went to in Dallas (Texas) ... (this) particular Catholic priest had been granted access
        to some of the gospels that were discovered in the Middle East that have since been locked up by the Muslims ... (and) he thinks
        that once these texts are released, Christians are going to have to question a
        lot of long held beliefs." No further explanation was offered
        about the texts by the blogger.

        Other than the gospel source material found in Tarif Khalidi's The Muslim Jesus, does anyone on the list have any idea of
        possible Muslim sources for material which could be taken as being from Jesus or from a Gospel of Thomas slant? ... in short, what
        "Middle East gospels" could the above blogger have been talking about. I recall reading somewhere that there are / were two
        versions of a / the Gospel of Barnabas, of which one supposedly is of Muslim origins (Andrew or Stephen Carlson might know of this)
        but I would be interested to know if there is yet other early readily available Muslim (gospel related)material which list members
        might know of as well ???

        Cheers, Maurice



        ------------------------------------

        Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
        Interlinear translation: http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
        Yahoo! Groups Links




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: jmgcormier To: Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:22 AM Subject: [GTh] Possible Muslim related GoT Source
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 20, 2008
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "jmgcormier" <cobby@...>
          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:22 AM
          Subject: [GTh] Possible Muslim related GoT Source Material


          > Greetings All .
          >
          > A short while ago while surfing blogs on the Gospel of
          > Thomas, I came onto a site which claimed " . according to a
          > scholarly priest at the Catholic Church we went to in Dallas (Texas)
          > . (this) particular Catholic priest had been granted access to some
          > of the gospels that were discovered in the Middle East that have
          > since been locked up by the Muslims . (and) he thinks that once
          > these texts are released, Christians are going to have to question a
          > lot of long held beliefs." No further explanation was offered
          > about the texts by the blogger.
          >
          > Other than the gospel source material found in Tarif
          > Khalidi's The Muslim Jesus, does anyone on the list have any idea of
          > possible Muslim sources for material which could be taken as being
          > from Jesus or from a Gospel of Thomas slant? . in short,
          > what "Middle East gospels" could the above blogger have been talking
          > about. I recall reading somewhere that there are / were two
          > versions of a / the Gospel of Barnabas, of which one supposedly is
          > of Muslim origins (Andrew or Stephen Carlson might know of this)
          > but I would be interested to know if there is yet other early
          > readily available Muslim (gospel related)material which list members
          > might know of as well ???
          >
          > Cheers, Maurice


          First, that "long held beliefs" held by Christians OR Muslims are
          questionable has been a reality check for hundreds of years. Flying horses,
          talking snakes and jackasses, virginal conception. Regardless of their
          origins in allegorical Hebrew literary styles or aggadic midrash or
          theologoumenon, those that take these stories literally (while often
          ignoring the message in them) do so as a matter of faith. The historical
          experience is that these matters of faith are pretty well unaffected by
          "revelatory" writings. They will continue to be unshakeable even by the
          newly discovered "diary" of Yeshua bar Yahosef that shows he moved to
          Chicago and opened up a hot dog stand (Hebrew Nationals, of course). The
          appeal of the Gospel of Thomas is that the mythology is peeled away to leave
          an anthology of ethical teaching that focuses on the WISDOM of Jesus rather
          than the NATURE of Jesus over which millions have been tortured and killed
          for centuries.

          My first blush reaction to this is that some new BS book is about to be
          published about "secret" gospels that only the author has seen...and where
          have we heard THAT before? I sense another "DaVinci Code" in the making.

          IF there are some ancient manuscripts being hidden by some undescribed
          Muslim authority, they would be interesting to scholars just as the Nag
          Hammadi texts in studying the diversity of early Christian groups and
          beliefs.

          How often have we all heard about how the GoT was"hidden" in a secret
          Vatican vault for centuries?

          Perhaps I am over-cynical because of my impatience at all the BS books and
          movies...remember "Stigmata?"


          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          San Antonio, TX
        • Wieland Willker
          ... books and ... It is interesting, more than 50% of ALL my webtraffic (on my sites) is generated by search for Stigmata and Thomasevangelium ! Actually
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 20, 2008
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            --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:
            > Perhaps I am over-cynical because of my impatience at all the BS
            books and
            > movies...remember "Stigmata?"

            It is interesting, more than 50% of ALL my webtraffic (on my sites) is
            generated by search for "Stigmata" and "Thomasevangelium"!
            Actually this is rather marginal stuff on my site.
            There seems to be an enormous interest in this.
          • jmgcormier
            Greetings and thank you David, Jack, Wieland and Adaire .... ... it almost sounds as though all of us are gnawing at the truth here, and I truly wish I had
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 21, 2008
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              Greetings and thank you David, Jack, Wieland and Adaire ....

              ... it almost sounds as though all of us are gnawing at the truth
              here, and I truly wish I had kept the URL for the site which would now
              allow me to backtrack and find out more about the "find".

              Admittedly (as pointed out by David), there are still lots of lost
              manuscripts and material out there which no doubt can (once found)
              provide us with better clues in leading us closer to the Thomas
              solution. (see for example just a few weeks ago the discovery of
              www.nytimes.com2008/07/06...6stone.html ) Having said that, of course,
              Jack is right also on the reliability issue as his is the same
              difficulty I have with blogs generally wherein every blogger can toot
              his horn in the direction he wishes without having to justify his or
              her posture. Many even get away by simply quoting or
              reporting "authorities" which are misquoted or blatently "in error"
              themselves ... Wieland, in turn, proves the point that GoT surfers
              ( "list drifters"?) are still largely (50%) captivated by tabloid and
              Hollywood (Stigmata) type sensationalism, and Adaire (no doubt talking
              on behalf of the other 50%) still hopes we can be scientific about our
              interest in Thomas.

              Perhaps as dedicated students or scholars about Thomas we should give
              equal time to dispelling or correcting myths about the GoT as we seem
              to do about unveiling new ideas about it. For example, a good number
              of mainstream researchers believe (and promote the view) that the
              Gospel of Thomas is necessarily "Syrian in origin" ... some, in fact,
              literally "hanging their hat" on it being necessarily factual. Well,
              of course, there isint' a single iota of proof or serious evidence to
              this effect anywhere (other than learned opinion or perhaps at
              best "calculated odds" of it being so), and the popular view that it
              is Syrian in origin is generally based on Henri-Charles Puech's late
              1950s idea that because the GoT identifies Judas Thomas Didymos as its
              scrivener, it "probably" came from Edessa because the apostle Thomas
              ministered to the faithful there at one point in his life. Well, if
              the apostle Thomas did indeed pen the GoT (no proof of this apostle
              being the Gospel's author either) why would he have written it in
              Syria and not in Persia or India or elsewhere where he also eventually
              ministered to the faithful ??? (Peuch notes, of course, that the
              apostle Thomas did have an Aramaic upbringing, and such was also the
              demographics of Syria and Edessa at the time... making him a "possible
              scrivener".)

              Another good example of this "taken for granted phenomena" is that
              Thomas' logion #114 is necessarily a much later add-on to the GoT
              because its demeanor dosent' quite "fit" with the general thrust of
              the rest of the manuscript. Of course, no one claiming this sort of
              statement to be true ever comes out with any demonstrable proof of the
              claim, and like yet other such examples, the promoters of such ideas
              do a disservice to the readership of the claim by creating a false
              impression and premise in their thinking that the logia 114 claim is
              a "proven fact". And thus, the list goes on … ranging from the idea
              of a bona fide "Thomas community" (no artifacts, church foundation or
              other hard evidence having ever been found), etc etc) …

              My view is that if these "givens" or "taken for granted" views about
              Thomas could be clearly identified or somehow removed from (or
              qualified in) mainstream thinking, then perhaps we might all have a
              much more realistic and truer understanding of "Thomas" and his gospel
              to work with, and thus a much clearer grasp of GoT's true relevance.

              Hmmmm! Perhaps the group can find herein a whole new vocation ...


              Maurice Cormier
            • ariadne
              Aloha all, The url you included in this post of the nytimes article does not seem to be correct. What discovery is it referring too? I really don t think we
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 21, 2008
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                Aloha all,
                The url you included in this post of the nytimes article does not seem to be correct. What discovery is it referring too?

                I really don't think we need anymore discoveries to confuse things
                further. We merely need to look at the Gospel of Thomas with an open
                heart and take a fresh perspective. Where there are minds there are
                opinions and I agree with you about logion 114, which in my mind fits in perfectly with the philosophy in GT. For example "making the two one". In my mind (after reading the Gospel of Phillip) "the two" signifies the masculine and feminine. Therefore, the wisdom of Thomas in logion 114 is that Mary would need to make herself male, embracing her masculine qualities. Furthermore the saying, which is said with a bit of sarcassm, is a statement of equality not inequality.

                After the sensationalism and farce associated with the Gospel of Judas, I am suspicious of any new discoveries. I believe they will be proven frauds.
                Ariadne
              • jmgcormier
                ... seem to be correct. What discovery is it referring too? ... I am not sure why that URL (one from the New York Times) went awry in the post ... you should
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 22, 2008
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                  --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "ariadne" <ariadne@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Aloha all,
                  > The url you included in this post of the nytimes article does not
                  seem to be correct. What discovery is it referring too?
                  >

                  -------------------------------

                  I am not sure why that URL (one from the New York Times) went awry in
                  the post ... you should be able to get to the story, however, by
                  simply using your search engine with the words "Tablet Messiah". The
                  story appeared in early July in leading and international newspapers,
                  and was discussed at a Jerusalem conference commemorating the
                  anniversary of the Dead Sea Scrolls ...

                  Maurice
                • Nully
                  The link as it appeared was faulty. Here it is with a tiny:
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 22, 2008
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                    The link as it appeared was faulty. Here it is with a tiny:

                    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Tablet%20Messiah&st=cse&oref=slogin

                    http://tinyurl.com/6p84uy

                    You can hear (and see?) Knohl's presentation here:

                    http://switch5.castup.net/frames/Imj/imj_20080706/Main.aspx

                    http://tinyurl.com/656zof

                    You have to use IE (at least my Firefox wouldn't work there)

                    Knohl's presentation is near the end of the tape on the third day (July
                    8). My setting was 1:05:00 or there abouts. Your mileage may vary.

                    The recording of the third day of the conference is very very messed up,
                    so you might not enjoy browsing LOL.

                    Nully Smith




                    jmgcormier wrote:
                    > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "ariadne" <ariadne@...> wrote:
                    >> Aloha all,
                    >> The url you included in this post of the nytimes article does not
                    > seem to be correct. What discovery is it referring too?
                    >
                    > -------------------------------
                    >
                    > I am not sure why that URL (one from the New York Times) went awry in
                    > the post ... you should be able to get to the story, however, by
                    > simply using your search engine with the words "Tablet Messiah". The
                    > story appeared in early July in leading and international newspapers,
                    > and was discussed at a Jerusalem conference commemorating the
                    > anniversary of the Dead Sea Scrolls ...
                    >
                    > Maurice
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                    > Interlinear translation: http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Nully
                    OOPS! After locating Knohl on the tape, I decided to play it, and discovered it was cut from the tape. All you get to see is his introduction. Sorry.
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jul 22, 2008
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                      OOPS! After locating Knohl on the tape, I decided to play it, and
                      discovered it was cut from the tape. All you get to see is his
                      introduction. Sorry.

                      Nully


                      Nully wrote:
                      > The link as it appeared was faulty. Here it is with a tiny:
                      >
                      > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Tablet%20Messiah&st=cse&oref=slogin
                      >
                      >
                      > http://tinyurl.com/6p84uy
                      >
                      > You can hear (and see?) Knohl's presentation here:
                      >
                      > http://switch5.castup.net/frames/Imj/imj_20080706/Main.aspx
                      >
                      > http://tinyurl.com/656zof
                      >
                      > You have to use IE (at least my Firefox wouldn't work there)
                      >
                      > Knohl's presentation is near the end of the tape on the third day (July
                      > 8). My setting was 1:05:00 or there abouts. Your mileage may vary.
                      >
                      > The recording of the third day of the conference is very very messed up,
                      > so you might not enjoy browsing LOL.
                      >
                      > Nully Smith
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