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  • Michael Grondin
    I know many of you are busy, if not on vacation, this weekend, but I m rather excited about some test changes I ve uploaded to my website, and I m anxious to
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 21, 2008
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      I know many of you are busy, if not on vacation, this weekend, but
      I'm rather excited about some test changes I've uploaded to my
      website, and I'm anxious to get some feedback about it. Some of
      this discussion is technical, but those to whom such talk is gobbledy-
      gook can skip over to the non-technical stuff.

      The proposed changes are in my saying-by-saying presentation,
      as currently exhibited in saying 79. (I chose that one because
      there was a minor error in the Coptic - one letter which should
      have been shown as being in a lacuna was not so shown. As it
      happens, my attention was brought to that error by the Coptic
      of L.79 used by Mark Goodacre in a paper we discussed here
      some time back.)

      To compare the old with the proposed new, go to
      http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/splitv.htm
      and click on 79 in one-half of the screen, any other saying
      in the other half of the screen.

      The most basic change is that the English translation which
      appears at the top of each sayings-page (and which is Lambdin's,
      BTW) is now enclosed in the .htm file rather than in the .gif files.
      What this means in practice is that one can now (1) copy the verbiage
      of the translation from the screen if desired, and (2) change the size
      of it on the screen for best personal viewing (in Internet Explorer,
      medium text-size seems to work best, as far as making it roughly
      the same size as what is below it on the screen, but readers with
      bad eyesight can make it bigger.)

      Other proposed changes:
      1. Subsayings denotations changed from a, b, c, etc. (which I still
      personally prefer) to the standard 1, 2, 3, etc.
      2. Addition of April DeConick's designation as "kernel" or
      "accretion" (assuming it's either "fair use" or she gives permission.)

      [Technical talk]: The impetus for this effort was that I've recently
      been able, for the first time, to create transparent gifs on the PC
      I purchased in 2001. For reasons unknown, the software I used
      on my old PC to create my original set of transparent gifs back in
      1999 didn't work on the new PC. Nor did upgrades to the software.
      (Visitors to my site may have wondered why the copyright notice
      on most of my pages hadn't been changed since 2002. Now you
      know; it's a transparent gif.) Recently, however, I tried a new piece
      of software (LView Pro) and got it to work. And - in case anyone is
      wondering why the background of my pages looks like that on
      Paterson Brown's Metalogos site - it's because I borrowed his
      background (with his permission) for my transparent gifs.

      Any and all comments on these proposed changes are welcome,
      either offlist or on. Also any proposed improvements.

      Mike Grondin
    • Michael Grondin
      A slight change from the testing procedure outlined in the earlier note: a Testing line has been added below the normal index of sayings numbers on my
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 23, 2008
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        A slight change from the testing procedure outlined in the
        earlier note: a "Testing" line has been added below the normal
        index of sayings numbers on my website. Selecting '79' in the
        normal list will bring up the original L79 presentation, while
        selecting '79' on the "Testing" line will bring up the proposed
        new presentation. This will allow a check between the old and
        the new on the same screen (each in half of split screen.)

        I failed to mention in the earlier note that I've changed the method
        of indicating lacunae from my original method of an empty box
        (or boxes) with the missing letters above it/them, to the
        standard method of enclosing the missing letters in brackets.
        I propose also (although L79 doesn't contain an occurrence)
        to change 'YS' to 'IS', along with an occurrence number
        (e.g., 'IS42' would be the 42nd occurrence of 'IS' in the text).

        It may also be noted that I've replaced Lambdin's translation
        with my own in the test L79. In particular, although it goes against
        the mainstream to translate it thus, L79 does NOT bless those who
        have heard the word of the Father AND kept it. Rather, it blesses
        those who have listened to the word of the Father, and ASSERTS
        that those folks have watched over (or guarded) it. Unless there's
        some feature of Coptic I'm unaware of (and that is most certainly
        possible), the mainstream translation may be seen as the result of
        a translational desire to be consistent with the NA27 Lukan parallel
        (11:28, which DOES contain the word 'and' [KAI]). I suppose a
        proper test of this would be to see what the Coptic translation of
        Lk 11:28 looks like (i.e., whether it contains the Coptic word for
        'and' [AYW] or equivalent - which L79.2 doesn't), but I haven't
        taken the time to do that yet.

        Regards to all,
        Mike Grondin
        Mt. Clemens, MI
      • Frank McCoy
        Hi Mike! I like the revisions you are thinking of making. The usage of 79:1, 79:2, etc. is becoming more prevalent now and I think that (if it isn t already)
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 24, 2008
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          Hi Mike!

          I like the revisions you are thinking of making. The usage of 79:1,
          79:2, etc. is becoming more prevalent now and I think that (if it isn't
          already) it will become the standard procedure. I especially like
          seeing both the classifications of the Jesus Seminar and of April
          DeConick. I'd prefer to see your own renderings on top over Lambdin's.

          You're proposed translation of 79:2 reads:
          "Blessed are they who have listened to the Word
          of the Father; they have truly watched over it.

          Here, "listened to the Word" seems to mean something stronger than just
          "heard the Word". Perhaps, to paraphrase the phraseology found in Mk
          3:23, it means "heard the Word and understood it". Compare Deut (66),
          where Philo states, "'Guardian' is therefore the sound and appropriate
          name which he gives to the man who remembers what he had learnt. At an
          earlier stage, when he was in training, this man was a pupil with
          another to teach him, but when he became capable of watching and
          guarding, he obtained the power and position of a teacher."

          IMO, this proposed translation weakens Mark Goodacre's thesis that
          79:1-2 is based on Lk 11:27 and strengthens the thesis that the reverse
          is correct--with Luke amending the meaning of what he saw in 79:1-2 to
          make it more pleasing to himself.

          Mike, in the immediately preceding 78, do you think that accomodation to
          the Synoptic tradition has oftentimes played a role in how to translate
          cwwe? You have translated it as "field"--and that is the standard
          translation for it in the other two sayings containing it. This
          translation fits the context--which is a place where there will be no
          water plants and where one will find a peasant in rough clothes rather
          than a nobleman in fine clothes.

          However, the only scholar I am aware of who has translated it as "field"
          is R. McL. Wilson. "Countryside" appears to be a rather commonly made
          translation. The Lambdin translation you give on top is "desert".

          So, I wonder if the translation of "desert" and, perhaps on a more
          subtle level as well, that of "countryside" as well, have been
          influenced by the word of "wilderness" in the Synoptic parallels.

          Frank McCoy
        • Michael Grondin
          Hi Frank, thanks for your response. First, a minor correction. You mention the ... usage of 79:1, 79:2, etc.... for sub-sayings. I ve never seen it with a
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 24, 2008
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            Hi Frank, thanks for your response. First, a minor correction. You
            mention the "... usage of 79:1, 79:2, etc...." for sub-sayings. I've
            never seen it with a colon, however. Always with a period, as far
            as I know.

            > [Your] proposed translation of 79:2 reads:
            > "Blessed are they who have listened to the Word
            > of the Father; they have truly watched over it.
            ...
            > IMO, this proposed translation weakens Mark Goodacre's thesis that
            > 79:1-2 is based on Lk 11:27 and strengthens the thesis that the reverse
            > is correct--with Luke amending the meaning of what he saw in 79:1-2 to
            > make it more pleasing to himself.

            Well, I wouldn't put it exactly like that, but you saw the implication
            alright! In fact, I had typed a couple of lines to that effect at the end of
            the relevant paragraph, but took them out cuz I didn't want to get into
            that in that note. It struck me that 79.2 was more optimistic than Lk 11:28,
            hence arguably earlier, but your Philo quote (not copied here) indicates a
            different line of argument which also seems promising. I don't think either
            line is sufficiently persuasive to win the day, however. (Nor am I persuaded
            by Goodacre's argument, either, of course.) But I do want to make the
            general point that harmonization of translations between GTh and the
            canonicals, whether it proceeds from impartial motives or not, has the
            effect of tending to suggest dependency implications which are often
            far less clear in the underlying source languages.

            > Mike, in the immediately preceding 78, do you think that accomodation to
            > the Synoptic tradition has oftentimes played a role in how to translate
            > cwwe? You have translated it as "field"--and that is the standard
            > translation for it in the other two sayings containing it. This
            > translation fits the context--which is a place where there will be no
            > water plants and where one will find a peasant in rough clothes rather
            > than a nobleman in fine clothes.
            >
            > However, the only scholar I am aware of who has translated it as "field"
            > is R. McL. Wilson. "Countryside" appears to be a rather commonly made
            > translation. The Lambdin translation you give on top is "desert".
            >
            > So, I wonder if the translation of "desert" and, perhaps on a more
            > subtle level as well, that of "countryside" as well, have been
            > influenced by the word of "wilderness" in the Synoptic parallels.

            Myself, I wouldn't pick 'desert'. Deserted area, yes, but not all deserted
            areas are deserts. As near as I can figure, it means undeveloped land
            (which may, however, be owned by someone), so if 'field' suggests a
            cultivated area in the reader's mind, that wouldn't be right, either, I
            think. 'Wilderness' or 'countryside' both seem pretty good to me in general,
            but neither of them fits well with L21 or L109, IMO. On the other hand,
            'field' doesn't seem to fit so well with L78 (unless one is thinking of the
            kind of "field" which was across the street from my house when I was
            growing up - a huge, uninhabited area of scrub vegetation). Lambdin
            has 'field, open country', the latter of which seems to fit L78, so I may
            use that (though I'd prefer a single word). As you can see, my mind
            is rather an open country on this issue!

            Thanks,
            Mike
          • Frank McCoy
            Hi Mike! Thanks for the information on cwwe. I notice that, in the IQP s attempt to convert the Coptic to Greek, they use agron for cwwe in 78.1. Is cwwe,
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 25, 2008
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              Hi Mike!

              Thanks for the information on cwwe.

              I notice that, in the IQP's attempt to convert the Coptic to Greek, they
              use agron for cwwe in 78.1.

              Is cwwe, then, closely related in meaning to the Greek agros--found in
              Mt 6:28 and (in the plural) in Mk 5:14? Can it ever be in the plural
              like agros?

              Frank McCoy
              <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1127921/grpspId=1705074057/m
              sgId=7890/stime=1206426159/nc1=3848642/nc2=5191954/nc3=5202321>



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Grondin
              ... Yep, but the third letter of the Coptic word is that W with a tail on it, which is an sh sound. The standard GThomas transliteration scheme would
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 25, 2008
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                Hi Frank; you wrote:
                > I notice that, in the IQP's attempt to convert the Coptic to Greek, they
                > use agron for cwwe in 78.1.
                >
                > Is cwwe, then, closely related in meaning to the Greek agros ...

                Yep, but the third letter of the Coptic word is that 'W' with a tail on it,
                which is an 'sh' sound. The standard GThomas transliteration scheme
                would render it 'SW$E', pronounced (as I understand it) SOH-sheh.
                (ref: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gthomas/files/BasicInfo/)

                > Can it ever be in the plural like agros?

                Sure, but the plural is formed differently in Coptic. Whereas Greek
                changes the end of the root-word, Coptic leaves the root-word the
                same and appends a plural article to it - 'N' in this case. Thus N-SW$E.
                (The 'N' would have an overstroke, hence pronounced 'en'.)

                Regards,
                Mike
                (p.s., Let's see if a Coptic font works: N.sw¥e )

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Rick Hubbard
                Hey Mike- I haven t gone through your new revision line-by-line, by any means, but I REALLY like the new format. Good Job, and do not quit. Rick Hubbard Humble
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 26, 2008
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                  Hey Mike-

                  I haven't gone through your new revision line-by-line, by any means, but I
                  REALLY like the new format. Good Job, and do not quit.

                  Rick Hubbard
                  Humble Maine Woodsman


                  ||-----Original Message-----
                  ||From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  ||Of Michael Grondin
                  ||Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 5:24 PM
                  ||To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  ||Subject: [GTh] Comments Invited
                  ||
                  ||I know many of you are busy, if not on vacation, this weekend, but
                  ||I'm rather excited about some test changes I've uploaded to my
                  ||website, and I'm anxious to get some feedback about it. Some of
                  ||this discussion is technical, but those to whom such talk is gobbledy-
                  ||gook can skip over to the non-technical stuff.
                  ||
                  ||The proposed changes are in my saying-by-saying presentation,
                  ||as currently exhibited in saying 79. (I chose that one because
                  ||there was a minor error in the Coptic - one letter which should
                  ||have been shown as being in a lacuna was not so shown. As it
                  ||happens, my attention was brought to that error by the Coptic
                  ||of L.79 used by Mark Goodacre in a paper we discussed here
                  ||some time back.)
                  ||
                  ||To compare the old with the proposed new, go to
                  ||http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/splitv.htm
                  ||and click on 79 in one-half of the screen, any other saying
                  ||in the other half of the screen.
                  ||
                  ||The most basic change is that the English translation which
                  ||appears at the top of each sayings-page (and which is Lambdin's,
                  ||BTW) is now enclosed in the .htm file rather than in the .gif files.
                  ||What this means in practice is that one can now (1) copy the verbiage
                  ||of the translation from the screen if desired, and (2) change the size
                  ||of it on the screen for best personal viewing (in Internet Explorer,
                  ||medium text-size seems to work best, as far as making it roughly
                  ||the same size as what is below it on the screen, but readers with
                  ||bad eyesight can make it bigger.)
                  ||
                  ||Other proposed changes:
                  ||1. Subsayings denotations changed from a, b, c, etc. (which I still
                  ||personally prefer) to the standard 1, 2, 3, etc.
                  ||2. Addition of April DeConick's designation as "kernel" or
                  ||"accretion" (assuming it's either "fair use" or she gives permission.)
                  ||
                  ||[Technical talk]: The impetus for this effort was that I've recently
                  ||been able, for the first time, to create transparent gifs on the PC
                  ||I purchased in 2001. For reasons unknown, the software I used
                  ||on my old PC to create my original set of transparent gifs back in
                  ||1999 didn't work on the new PC. Nor did upgrades to the software.
                  ||(Visitors to my site may have wondered why the copyright notice
                  ||on most of my pages hadn't been changed since 2002. Now you
                  ||know; it's a transparent gif.) Recently, however, I tried a new piece
                  ||of software (LView Pro) and got it to work. And - in case anyone is
                  ||wondering why the background of my pages looks like that on
                  ||Paterson Brown's Metalogos site - it's because I borrowed his
                  ||background (with his permission) for my transparent gifs.
                  ||
                  ||Any and all comments on these proposed changes are welcome,
                  ||either offlist or on. Also any proposed improvements.
                  ||
                  ||Mike Grondin
                  ||
                  ||
                  ||------------------------------------
                  ||
                  ||------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  ||Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                  ||Interlinear translation: http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
                  ||Yahoo! Groups Links
                  ||
                  ||
                  ||
                • Michael Grondin
                  Thanks, Rick, for your encouragement. I ve also received an offlist note from old buddy Kevin Johnson that I ll answer here. It involves the Coptic translation
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 27, 2008
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                    Thanks, Rick, for your encouragement. I've also received an
                    offlist note from old buddy Kevin Johnson that I'll answer here.
                    It involves the Coptic translation of Lk 11:28 that Kevin was
                    good enough to look up and pass along to me. (It was an
                    attachment to his note that would have been stripped off by
                    Yahoogroups, so he had to send it offlist.) Unfortunately, I was
                    unable to decipher the font used, so I turned to the St. Shenouda
                    the Archimandrite Coptic Society CD-rom that's been mentioned
                    here before.

                    The short answer to the question of how Lk 11:28 was translated
                    in ancient Sahidic is that it _does_ contain an equivalent of the
                    conjunction 'and', though not the word 'and' itself. The Coptic
                    reads as follows:

                    "More blessed are they who listen to the word of God
                    which (or who) keep it."

                    The basic relevant difference between the Sahidic translation
                    of Lk 11:28 and GTh 79.2 is this:

                    Lk 11:28 -- ET-ARE2 (which keep)
                    GTh79.2 -- AY-ARE2 (they [have] kept)

                    This confirms the subtle but significant difference between these
                    parallels, which is unfortunately hidden by harmonizing translations.
                    (There are other differences, but this one is mostly ignored.)

                    Mike Grondin
                    Mt. Clemens, MI
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