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Re: [GTh] DeConick on the Mother Sayings

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  • StKilda@comcast.net
    Hi Ron, L105 He who *will* know the father and the mother will be called the son of (the?) harlot . There is the possibility that what is being addressed
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 5, 2008
      Hi Ron,

      L105 "He who *will* know the father and the mother
      will be called 'the son of (the?) harlot'."

      There is the possibility that what is being addressed here is the nature of God. Jesus maybe saying that God is both masculine and feminine; that the "sacred feminine" is a part of God and he is their "son"?

      The sacred feminine is nowhere recognized in the Canonical texts. In Proverbs 8 "Wisdom" is feminine and in the Tanakh the Shekinah is also feminine. But nowhere in the Tanakh is God feminine; even though there is such a teaching in Kabalah.

      The theologians of Jesus day would view a claim to be the son of a divine father and divine mother as wickedness, i.e. "the son of a harlot". They may have accepted that God is masculine, but they would not have accepted that God is also feminine, a mother.

      Those theologians supported a patriarchy and edited the Tanakh accordingly.

      Toli

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    • Ron McCann
      Hi Toli, There is of course, reference in Jewish writings to the Shekina- the presence of God in a kind of light display or glory- said to have departed from
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 7, 2008
        Hi Toli,

        There is of course, reference in Jewish writings to the Shekina- the presence of God in a kind of light display or glory- said to have departed from the Temple of Jerusalem just before the Romans destroyed it.( "There is your temple, forsaken by God!"). The Shekina was a Feminine aspect of the divine or of the divine power dating back to some of the manifestations of Moses day. So I think a feminine element in God's nature was recognized by the Jews of Jesus' day, and not only as personified Wisdom. In either the Gospel of the Egyptians of the Gospel of the Hebrews, Jesus is made to expressly allude to "My mother, the Holy Spirit", and I think Thomas is in lock-step with the notion that the Holy Spirit- whether personified Wisdom or not, is feminine. here. What may be new to Judaism is the notion of the Holy Spirit as Mother to someone.

        That aside for the moment-
        What really intrigues me is that "will" in the Logion, where Jesus seems to be referencing a future time when his legitimacy will be called into question. It's possible our saying-fabricator is not so much intending that this be read as an ironic saying or some teaching-statement of Jesus or even a statement where he is defending himself him from present time attacks in his day, but was intended by our writer as a prophecy of Jesus - Jesus prophesying the coming of a time in future (our saying-fabricator's day, of course!) when Jesus legitimacy would be attacked. I think Mark used much the same "stick-words-in- Jesus'- mouth" gambit when he had Jesus prophesy the throwing down of the great stones of the Temple which happened in Mark's day 40 years later; and just as that questionable "prophecy" story can be used to date Mark to post AD 70, so also this logion might be useful in helping us us put a 90-110 CE date on a large and comprehesive redaction of the Gospel of Thomas into it's expanded present form.

        Ron McCann
        Saskatoon

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      • Ron McCann
        Sorry. I accidentally chooped the last part of my post of fwhen I was editing out Toli s post. The last line should read at the end - comprehensive redaction
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 7, 2008
          Sorry. I accidentally chooped the last part of my post of fwhen I was editing out Toli's post.

          The last line should read at the end - "comprehensive redaction of Thomas."

          And the closing paragraph was:-

          "Of course, my conclusions here are speculative and depend on "Whoever knows the Father and Mother" being used self- referentially by Jesus or to refer to Jesus- which, admittedly, is a bit of reach."

          Ron McCann
          Saskatoon





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