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Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?

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  • Ron McCann
    My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any actual baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in Thomas, and this
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 30, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any actual baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the Thomasines (Thomasites?) theology- which seems to be that one could reverse the Fall of Man. How they purported to accomplish this, seems not to have been preseved. But I see no evidence to suggest that they belived to be achieved through baptism or ever practiced that.

      Jim raises an interesting point about Mandean influence and one I have often pondered. Just how many of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels and Thomas, might, in fact, have originated with John the Baptist? Are we perhaps looking at the sayings of two different men, in Thomas, and in the Gospels? Sometimes I "hear" two different voices there, and have been tempted to separate them.

      On the related thread of whether Jesus may have actually lived and maybe got his education in Jerusalem rather than Nazareth, a Mandean Gospel actually says he lived there at the time of the Baptist.

      Ron McCann
      Saskatoon, Canada
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jim Bauer
      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:40 AM
      Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?


      This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens claimed to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not a scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-impossible because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens baptizing at the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby entering Thomas?

      As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case for this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?

      Jim Bauer
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: danw888
      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
      Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?

      --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@...> wrote:

      > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
      > 1) When they can strip naked
      > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3) when they
      > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our author
      > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
      > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid themselves
      > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
      > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not fear"
      > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not issues.
      > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of pre fall
      > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the Fall of
      > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise. In the
      > cool of the evening.
      >

      This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little child
      again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like little
      children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to the
      innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.

      Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state of
      Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous saying to
      37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing. J also
      teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not worrying
      and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic state.

      Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born again, if
      you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may well be the
      psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god, needs
      provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
      dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.

      Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the ability to
      strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins forgiven,
      right with god again, the body is purified with water and the soul is
      filled with the holy spirit.

      I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were said to
      be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book Gate
      of Heaven)

      Dan

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • danw888
      ... baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the Thomasines (Thomasites?)
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 30, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Ron McCann <ronmccann1@...> wrote:
        >
        > My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any actual
        baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in
        Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the Thomasines
        (Thomasites?) theology- which seems to be that one could reverse the
        Fall of Man. How they purported to accomplish this, seems not to have
        been preseved. But I see no evidence to suggest that they belived to
        be achieved through baptism or ever practiced that.

        Hi, Ron -

        The saying seek until you find, troubled, wonder, reign, rest is a
        baptismal saying.

        I happen to believe that GT was early and that its theology is closely
        related to the teachings of jesus not a new departure at all. It was
        not some crazy encratite cult made up in syria in the 3rd century.
        According to April DeC a baptismal sitz has been the basic theory
        since Jonathan Z. Smith published an article on it in 1966. (April
        DeConick Stripped before God VC 45(1991)) She of course has other
        ideas, which I don't find very convincing.

        >
        > Jim raises an interesting point about Mandean influence and one I
        have often pondered. Just how many of the sayings attributed to Jesus
        in the Gospels and Thomas, might, in fact, have originated with John
        the Baptist? Are we perhaps looking at the sayings of two different
        men, in Thomas, and in the Gospels? Sometimes I "hear" two different
        voices there, and have been tempted to separate them.

        Possible but really hard to come up with criteria for separating them.
        I tend to be a skeptic on sayings research which tries to identify
        those coming from Jesus and those invented in the early churches or
        elsewhere. E. P Sanders has pointed out what a swamp this whole line
        of endeavor is.

        >
        > On the related thread of whether Jesus may have actually lived and
        maybe got his education in Jerusalem rather than Nazareth, a Mandean
        Gospel actually says he lived there at the time of the Baptist.
        >
        > Ron McCann
        > Saskatoon, Canada
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Jim Bauer
        > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:40 AM
        > Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
        >
        >
        > This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens claimed
        to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not a
        scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-impossible
        because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens baptizing at
        the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into
        X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby entering
        Thomas?
        >
        > As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case for
        this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?
        >
        > Jim Bauer
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: danw888
        > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
        > Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
        >
        > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@> wrote:
        >
        > > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
        > > 1) When they can strip naked
        > > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3) when they
        > > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our author
        > > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
        > > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid themselves
        > > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
        > > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not fear"
        > > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not issues.
        > > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of pre
        fall
        > > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the Fall of
        > > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise. In the
        > > cool of the evening.
        > >
        >
        > This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little child
        > again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like little
        > children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to the
        > innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.
        >
        > Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state of
        > Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous saying to
        > 37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing. J also
        > teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not worrying
        > and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic state.
        >
        > Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born again, if
        > you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may well be the
        > psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god, needs
        > provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
        > dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.
        >
        > Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the ability to
        > strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins forgiven,
        > right with god again, the body is purified with water and the soul is
        > filled with the holy spirit.
        >
        > I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were said to
        > be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book Gate
        > of Heaven)
        >
        > Dan
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Ron McCann
        Thanks, Dan. I hope you didn t mind me butting in, but you d quoted me on logion 37, and I didn t want to leave anyone with the impression that I thought this
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 31, 2007
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          Thanks, Dan.
          I hope you didn't mind me butting in, but you'd quoted me on logion 37, and I didn't want to leave anyone with the impression that I thought this was a Baptismal-referencing logion.
          I still don't, and I'm aware of the scholarly consensus. Let's just say I'm out of step with the rest of the parade on this.

          The only ritual or sacramental practice I think I see in Thomas are possible allusions to the Gnostic "Bridal Chamber" ritual (mentioned in the quasi-gnostic Gospel of Philip) in logions 75 and 104, and even that's "iffy".

          As for logion 2 (seek, find, be disturbed, marvel, reign) in all frankness, my jaw dropped when I saw your assertion that this was a baptismal saying. I confess that what immediately crossed my mind was a scene from Cheers where Frasier, in reply to something Cliff has just said, says "And what colour is the sky in your world, Cliff?" (grin). But to be serious, I would dearly love to know how you arrived at that conclusion, and perhaps you might explain. Perhaps Offlist? (since we're shifting to a new logion).
          I've always viewed that saying as outlining the steps and stages and feelings to be encountered in a supplicant's pursuit of truth and possible sequential initiations into the succeedingly higher levels of the Thomas Mysteries, as he or she progressed towards the ultimate level of spiritual attainment and revelation that seems promised. A sort of spiritual "road-map". Very Gnostic stuff, in my view, and I see no indication here that Baptism was one of these stages-rather the whole thing seems to flow as a consequence of persistence in "seeking and finding". But let's hear what you have to say.

          Ron McCann
          Saskatoon, Canada
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: danw888
          To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:43 PM
          Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?


          --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Ron McCann <ronmccann1@...> wrote:
          >
          > My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any actual
          baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in
          Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the Thomasines
          (Thomasites?) theology- which seems to be that one could reverse the
          Fall of Man. How they purported to accomplish this, seems not to have
          been preseved. But I see no evidence to suggest that they belived to
          be achieved through baptism or ever practiced that.

          Hi, Ron -

          The saying seek until you find, troubled, wonder, reign, rest is a
          baptismal saying.

          I happen to believe that GT was early and that its theology is closely
          related to the teachings of jesus not a new departure at all. It was
          not some crazy encratite cult made up in syria in the 3rd century.
          According to April DeC a baptismal sitz has been the basic theory
          since Jonathan Z. Smith published an article on it in 1966. (April
          DeConick Stripped before God VC 45(1991)) She of course has other
          ideas, which I don't find very convincing.

          >
          > Jim raises an interesting point about Mandean influence and one I
          have often pondered. Just how many of the sayings attributed to Jesus
          in the Gospels and Thomas, might, in fact, have originated with John
          the Baptist? Are we perhaps looking at the sayings of two different
          men, in Thomas, and in the Gospels? Sometimes I "hear" two different
          voices there, and have been tempted to separate them.

          Possible but really hard to come up with criteria for separating them.
          I tend to be a skeptic on sayings research which tries to identify
          those coming from Jesus and those invented in the early churches or
          elsewhere. E. P Sanders has pointed out what a swamp this whole line
          of endeavor is.

          >
          > On the related thread of whether Jesus may have actually lived and
          maybe got his education in Jerusalem rather than Nazareth, a Mandean
          Gospel actually says he lived there at the time of the Baptist.
          >
          > Ron McCann
          > Saskatoon, Canada
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Jim Bauer
          > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:40 AM
          > Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
          >
          >
          > This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens claimed
          to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not a
          scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-impossible
          because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens baptizing at
          the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into
          X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby entering
          Thomas?
          >
          > As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case for
          this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?
          >
          > Jim Bauer
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: danw888
          > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
          > Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
          >
          > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@> wrote:
          >
          > > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
          > > 1) When they can strip naked
          > > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3) when they
          > > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our author
          > > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
          > > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid themselves
          > > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
          > > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not fear"
          > > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not issues.
          > > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of pre
          fall
          > > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the Fall of
          > > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise. In the
          > > cool of the evening.
          > >
          >
          > This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little child
          > again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like little
          > children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to the
          > innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.
          >
          > Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state of
          > Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous saying to
          > 37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing. J also
          > teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not worrying
          > and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic state.
          >
          > Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born again, if
          > you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may well be the
          > psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god, needs
          > provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
          > dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.
          >
          > Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the ability to
          > strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins forgiven,
          > right with god again, the body is purified with water and the soul is
          > filled with the holy spirit.
          >
          > I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were said to
          > be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book Gate
          > of Heaven)
          >
          > Dan
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • danw888
          ... Hi, Ron Thanks for your insights into the adam and eve story in relation to #37. They have been really useful to me in working on this saying. Please give
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 31, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Ron McCann <ronmccann1@...> wrote:

            Hi, Ron

            Thanks for your insights into the adam and eve story in relation to
            #37. They have been really useful to me in working on this saying.

            Please give me a rain check on logion 2. Its on my agenda to write
            up my baptismal ideas, but right now I am wrestling with my
            objections to April DeC's encratite take on #37 in her 'Stripped
            before God', which I will pass on to the list in a bit.

            I assume that the Thomasines had a sacramental system, you just
            don't hear much about it since GTh is a sayings gospel. References
            would be oblique hints to the symbols used in the rituals. If you
            just read the gospel of mark, you wouldn't know much about Christian
            baptism, either.

            Cliff

            >
            > Thanks, Dan.
            > I hope you didn't mind me butting in, but you'd quoted me on
            logion 37, and I didn't want to leave anyone with the impression
            that I thought this was a Baptismal-referencing logion.
            > I still don't, and I'm aware of the scholarly consensus. Let's
            just say I'm out of step with the rest of the parade on this.
            >
            > The only ritual or sacramental practice I think I see in Thomas
            are possible allusions to the Gnostic "Bridal Chamber" ritual
            (mentioned in the quasi-gnostic Gospel of Philip) in logions 75 and
            104, and even that's "iffy".
            >
            > As for logion 2 (seek, find, be disturbed, marvel, reign) in all
            frankness, my jaw dropped when I saw your assertion that this was a
            baptismal saying. I confess that what immediately crossed my mind
            was a scene from Cheers where Frasier, in reply to something Cliff
            has just said, says "And what colour is the sky in your world,
            Cliff?" (grin). But to be serious, I would dearly love to know how
            you arrived at that conclusion, and perhaps you might explain.
            Perhaps Offlist? (since we're shifting to a new logion).
            > I've always viewed that saying as outlining the steps and stages
            and feelings to be encountered in a supplicant's pursuit of truth
            and possible sequential initiations into the succeedingly higher
            levels of the Thomas Mysteries, as he or she progressed towards the
            ultimate level of spiritual attainment and revelation that seems
            promised. A sort of spiritual "road-map". Very Gnostic stuff, in my
            view, and I see no indication here that Baptism was one of these
            stages-rather the whole thing seems to flow as a consequence of
            persistence in "seeking and finding". But let's hear what you have
            to say.
            >
            > Ron McCann
            > Saskatoon, Canada
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: danw888
            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:43 PM
            > Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
            >
            >
            > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Ron McCann <ronmccann1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any
            actual
            > baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new
            theology in
            > Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the
            Thomasines
            > (Thomasites?) theology- which seems to be that one could reverse
            the
            > Fall of Man. How they purported to accomplish this, seems not to
            have
            > been preseved. But I see no evidence to suggest that they
            belived to
            > be achieved through baptism or ever practiced that.
            >
            > Hi, Ron -
            >
            > The saying seek until you find, troubled, wonder, reign, rest is
            a
            > baptismal saying.
            >
            > I happen to believe that GT was early and that its theology is
            closely
            > related to the teachings of jesus not a new departure at all. It
            was
            > not some crazy encratite cult made up in syria in the 3rd
            century.
            > According to April DeC a baptismal sitz has been the basic theory
            > since Jonathan Z. Smith published an article on it in 1966.
            (April
            > DeConick Stripped before God VC 45(1991)) She of course has other
            > ideas, which I don't find very convincing.
            >
            > >
            > > Jim raises an interesting point about Mandean influence and
            one I
            > have often pondered. Just how many of the sayings attributed to
            Jesus
            > in the Gospels and Thomas, might, in fact, have originated with
            John
            > the Baptist? Are we perhaps looking at the sayings of two
            different
            > men, in Thomas, and in the Gospels? Sometimes I "hear" two
            different
            > voices there, and have been tempted to separate them.
            >
            > Possible but really hard to come up with criteria for separating
            them.
            > I tend to be a skeptic on sayings research which tries to
            identify
            > those coming from Jesus and those invented in the early churches
            or
            > elsewhere. E. P Sanders has pointed out what a swamp this whole
            line
            > of endeavor is.
            >
            > >
            > > On the related thread of whether Jesus may have actually lived
            and
            > maybe got his education in Jerusalem rather than Nazareth, a
            Mandean
            > Gospel actually says he lived there at the time of the Baptist.
            > >
            > > Ron McCann
            > > Saskatoon, Canada
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Jim Bauer
            > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:40 AM
            > > Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to
            baptism?
            > >
            > >
            > > This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens
            claimed
            > to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not
            a
            > scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-
            impossible
            > because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens
            baptizing at
            > the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into
            > X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby
            entering
            > Thomas?
            > >
            > > As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case
            for
            > this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?
            > >
            > > Jim Bauer
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: danw888
            > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
            > > Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to
            baptism?
            > >
            > > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@> wrote:
            > >
            > > > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
            > > > 1) When they can strip naked
            > > > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3)
            when they
            > > > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our
            author
            > > > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
            > > > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid
            themselves
            > > > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
            > > > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not
            fear"
            > > > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not
            issues.
            > > > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of
            pre
            > fall
            > > > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the
            Fall of
            > > > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise.
            In the
            > > > cool of the evening.
            > > >
            > >
            > > This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little
            child
            > > again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like
            little
            > > children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to
            the
            > > innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.
            > >
            > > Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state
            of
            > > Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous
            saying to
            > > 37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing.
            J also
            > > teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not
            worrying
            > > and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic
            state.
            > >
            > > Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born
            again, if
            > > you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may
            well be the
            > > psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god,
            needs
            > > provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
            > > dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.
            > >
            > > Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the
            ability to
            > > strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins
            forgiven,
            > > right with god again, the body is purified with water and the
            soul is
            > > filled with the holy spirit.
            > >
            > > I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were
            said to
            > > be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book
            Gate
            > > of Heaven)
            > >
            > > Dan
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
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