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Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?

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  • StKilda
    Do remember our good Puritan heritage. We tend to judge things based on these long established values and some 1800 years of NT theology; which is not the
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 28, 2007
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      Do remember our good Puritan heritage. We tend to judge things based on
      these long established values and some 1800 years of NT theology;
      which is not the theology in GT.


      Toli


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: sweetsimran888
      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 9:06 PM
      Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?


      If baptism is an initial stage, an initiation, a beginning process of
      evolving spiritually than one would not be ready to stand
      naked before God at such an early stage. I agree trampling on the
      garments probably refers to putting off the body, so if the clothes are
      the body than it is the soul that stands naked before God. On this
      physical plane one cannot survive without a body therefore I would
      gather that this stand naked is happening on a higher heaven.

      Maria





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim Bauer
      This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens claimed to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I m not a scholar, need to rely on
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 30, 2007
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        This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens claimed to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not a scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-impossible because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens baptizing at the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby entering Thomas?

        As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case for this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?

        Jim Bauer
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: danw888
        To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
        Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?


        --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@...> wrote:

        > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
        > 1) When they can strip naked
        > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3) when they
        > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our author
        > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
        > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid themselves
        > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
        > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not fear"
        > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not issues.
        > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of pre fall
        > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the Fall of
        > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise. In the
        > cool of the evening.
        >

        This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little child
        again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like little
        children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to the
        innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.

        Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state of
        Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous saying to
        37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing. J also
        teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not worrying
        and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic state.

        Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born again, if
        you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may well be the
        psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god, needs
        provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
        dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.

        Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the ability to
        strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins forgiven,
        right with god again, the body is purified with water and the soul is
        filled with the holy spirit.

        I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were said to
        be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book Gate
        of Heaven)

        Dan





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ron McCann
        My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any actual baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in Thomas, and this
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 30, 2007
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          My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any actual baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the Thomasines (Thomasites?) theology- which seems to be that one could reverse the Fall of Man. How they purported to accomplish this, seems not to have been preseved. But I see no evidence to suggest that they belived to be achieved through baptism or ever practiced that.

          Jim raises an interesting point about Mandean influence and one I have often pondered. Just how many of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels and Thomas, might, in fact, have originated with John the Baptist? Are we perhaps looking at the sayings of two different men, in Thomas, and in the Gospels? Sometimes I "hear" two different voices there, and have been tempted to separate them.

          On the related thread of whether Jesus may have actually lived and maybe got his education in Jerusalem rather than Nazareth, a Mandean Gospel actually says he lived there at the time of the Baptist.

          Ron McCann
          Saskatoon, Canada
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Jim Bauer
          To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:40 AM
          Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?


          This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens claimed to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not a scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-impossible because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens baptizing at the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby entering Thomas?

          As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case for this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?

          Jim Bauer
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: danw888
          To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
          Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?

          --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@...> wrote:

          > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
          > 1) When they can strip naked
          > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3) when they
          > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our author
          > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
          > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid themselves
          > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
          > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not fear"
          > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not issues.
          > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of pre fall
          > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the Fall of
          > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise. In the
          > cool of the evening.
          >

          This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little child
          again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like little
          children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to the
          innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.

          Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state of
          Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous saying to
          37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing. J also
          teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not worrying
          and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic state.

          Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born again, if
          you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may well be the
          psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god, needs
          provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
          dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.

          Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the ability to
          strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins forgiven,
          right with god again, the body is purified with water and the soul is
          filled with the holy spirit.

          I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were said to
          be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book Gate
          of Heaven)

          Dan

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • danw888
          ... baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the Thomasines (Thomasites?)
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 30, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Ron McCann <ronmccann1@...> wrote:
            >
            > My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any actual
            baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in
            Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the Thomasines
            (Thomasites?) theology- which seems to be that one could reverse the
            Fall of Man. How they purported to accomplish this, seems not to have
            been preseved. But I see no evidence to suggest that they belived to
            be achieved through baptism or ever practiced that.

            Hi, Ron -

            The saying seek until you find, troubled, wonder, reign, rest is a
            baptismal saying.

            I happen to believe that GT was early and that its theology is closely
            related to the teachings of jesus not a new departure at all. It was
            not some crazy encratite cult made up in syria in the 3rd century.
            According to April DeC a baptismal sitz has been the basic theory
            since Jonathan Z. Smith published an article on it in 1966. (April
            DeConick Stripped before God VC 45(1991)) She of course has other
            ideas, which I don't find very convincing.

            >
            > Jim raises an interesting point about Mandean influence and one I
            have often pondered. Just how many of the sayings attributed to Jesus
            in the Gospels and Thomas, might, in fact, have originated with John
            the Baptist? Are we perhaps looking at the sayings of two different
            men, in Thomas, and in the Gospels? Sometimes I "hear" two different
            voices there, and have been tempted to separate them.

            Possible but really hard to come up with criteria for separating them.
            I tend to be a skeptic on sayings research which tries to identify
            those coming from Jesus and those invented in the early churches or
            elsewhere. E. P Sanders has pointed out what a swamp this whole line
            of endeavor is.

            >
            > On the related thread of whether Jesus may have actually lived and
            maybe got his education in Jerusalem rather than Nazareth, a Mandean
            Gospel actually says he lived there at the time of the Baptist.
            >
            > Ron McCann
            > Saskatoon, Canada
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Jim Bauer
            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:40 AM
            > Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
            >
            >
            > This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens claimed
            to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not a
            scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-impossible
            because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens baptizing at
            the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into
            X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby entering
            Thomas?
            >
            > As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case for
            this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?
            >
            > Jim Bauer
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: danw888
            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
            > Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
            >
            > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@> wrote:
            >
            > > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
            > > 1) When they can strip naked
            > > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3) when they
            > > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our author
            > > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
            > > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid themselves
            > > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
            > > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not fear"
            > > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not issues.
            > > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of pre
            fall
            > > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the Fall of
            > > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise. In the
            > > cool of the evening.
            > >
            >
            > This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little child
            > again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like little
            > children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to the
            > innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.
            >
            > Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state of
            > Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous saying to
            > 37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing. J also
            > teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not worrying
            > and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic state.
            >
            > Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born again, if
            > you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may well be the
            > psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god, needs
            > provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
            > dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.
            >
            > Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the ability to
            > strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins forgiven,
            > right with god again, the body is purified with water and the soul is
            > filled with the holy spirit.
            >
            > I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were said to
            > be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book Gate
            > of Heaven)
            >
            > Dan
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Ron McCann
            Thanks, Dan. I hope you didn t mind me butting in, but you d quoted me on logion 37, and I didn t want to leave anyone with the impression that I thought this
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 31, 2007
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              Thanks, Dan.
              I hope you didn't mind me butting in, but you'd quoted me on logion 37, and I didn't want to leave anyone with the impression that I thought this was a Baptismal-referencing logion.
              I still don't, and I'm aware of the scholarly consensus. Let's just say I'm out of step with the rest of the parade on this.

              The only ritual or sacramental practice I think I see in Thomas are possible allusions to the Gnostic "Bridal Chamber" ritual (mentioned in the quasi-gnostic Gospel of Philip) in logions 75 and 104, and even that's "iffy".

              As for logion 2 (seek, find, be disturbed, marvel, reign) in all frankness, my jaw dropped when I saw your assertion that this was a baptismal saying. I confess that what immediately crossed my mind was a scene from Cheers where Frasier, in reply to something Cliff has just said, says "And what colour is the sky in your world, Cliff?" (grin). But to be serious, I would dearly love to know how you arrived at that conclusion, and perhaps you might explain. Perhaps Offlist? (since we're shifting to a new logion).
              I've always viewed that saying as outlining the steps and stages and feelings to be encountered in a supplicant's pursuit of truth and possible sequential initiations into the succeedingly higher levels of the Thomas Mysteries, as he or she progressed towards the ultimate level of spiritual attainment and revelation that seems promised. A sort of spiritual "road-map". Very Gnostic stuff, in my view, and I see no indication here that Baptism was one of these stages-rather the whole thing seems to flow as a consequence of persistence in "seeking and finding". But let's hear what you have to say.

              Ron McCann
              Saskatoon, Canada
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: danw888
              To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:43 PM
              Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?


              --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Ron McCann <ronmccann1@...> wrote:
              >
              > My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any actual
              baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new theology in
              Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the Thomasines
              (Thomasites?) theology- which seems to be that one could reverse the
              Fall of Man. How they purported to accomplish this, seems not to have
              been preseved. But I see no evidence to suggest that they belived to
              be achieved through baptism or ever practiced that.

              Hi, Ron -

              The saying seek until you find, troubled, wonder, reign, rest is a
              baptismal saying.

              I happen to believe that GT was early and that its theology is closely
              related to the teachings of jesus not a new departure at all. It was
              not some crazy encratite cult made up in syria in the 3rd century.
              According to April DeC a baptismal sitz has been the basic theory
              since Jonathan Z. Smith published an article on it in 1966. (April
              DeConick Stripped before God VC 45(1991)) She of course has other
              ideas, which I don't find very convincing.

              >
              > Jim raises an interesting point about Mandean influence and one I
              have often pondered. Just how many of the sayings attributed to Jesus
              in the Gospels and Thomas, might, in fact, have originated with John
              the Baptist? Are we perhaps looking at the sayings of two different
              men, in Thomas, and in the Gospels? Sometimes I "hear" two different
              voices there, and have been tempted to separate them.

              Possible but really hard to come up with criteria for separating them.
              I tend to be a skeptic on sayings research which tries to identify
              those coming from Jesus and those invented in the early churches or
              elsewhere. E. P Sanders has pointed out what a swamp this whole line
              of endeavor is.

              >
              > On the related thread of whether Jesus may have actually lived and
              maybe got his education in Jerusalem rather than Nazareth, a Mandean
              Gospel actually says he lived there at the time of the Baptist.
              >
              > Ron McCann
              > Saskatoon, Canada
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Jim Bauer
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:40 AM
              > Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
              >
              >
              > This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens claimed
              to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not a
              scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-impossible
              because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens baptizing at
              the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into
              X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby entering
              Thomas?
              >
              > As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case for
              this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?
              >
              > Jim Bauer
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: danw888
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
              > Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
              >
              > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@> wrote:
              >
              > > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
              > > 1) When they can strip naked
              > > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3) when they
              > > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our author
              > > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
              > > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid themselves
              > > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
              > > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not fear"
              > > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not issues.
              > > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of pre
              fall
              > > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the Fall of
              > > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise. In the
              > > cool of the evening.
              > >
              >
              > This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little child
              > again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like little
              > children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to the
              > innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.
              >
              > Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state of
              > Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous saying to
              > 37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing. J also
              > teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not worrying
              > and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic state.
              >
              > Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born again, if
              > you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may well be the
              > psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god, needs
              > provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
              > dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.
              >
              > Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the ability to
              > strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins forgiven,
              > right with god again, the body is purified with water and the soul is
              > filled with the holy spirit.
              >
              > I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were said to
              > be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book Gate
              > of Heaven)
              >
              > Dan
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • danw888
              ... Hi, Ron Thanks for your insights into the adam and eve story in relation to #37. They have been really useful to me in working on this saying. Please give
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 31, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Ron McCann <ronmccann1@...> wrote:

                Hi, Ron

                Thanks for your insights into the adam and eve story in relation to
                #37. They have been really useful to me in working on this saying.

                Please give me a rain check on logion 2. Its on my agenda to write
                up my baptismal ideas, but right now I am wrestling with my
                objections to April DeC's encratite take on #37 in her 'Stripped
                before God', which I will pass on to the list in a bit.

                I assume that the Thomasines had a sacramental system, you just
                don't hear much about it since GTh is a sayings gospel. References
                would be oblique hints to the symbols used in the rituals. If you
                just read the gospel of mark, you wouldn't know much about Christian
                baptism, either.

                Cliff

                >
                > Thanks, Dan.
                > I hope you didn't mind me butting in, but you'd quoted me on
                logion 37, and I didn't want to leave anyone with the impression
                that I thought this was a Baptismal-referencing logion.
                > I still don't, and I'm aware of the scholarly consensus. Let's
                just say I'm out of step with the rest of the parade on this.
                >
                > The only ritual or sacramental practice I think I see in Thomas
                are possible allusions to the Gnostic "Bridal Chamber" ritual
                (mentioned in the quasi-gnostic Gospel of Philip) in logions 75 and
                104, and even that's "iffy".
                >
                > As for logion 2 (seek, find, be disturbed, marvel, reign) in all
                frankness, my jaw dropped when I saw your assertion that this was a
                baptismal saying. I confess that what immediately crossed my mind
                was a scene from Cheers where Frasier, in reply to something Cliff
                has just said, says "And what colour is the sky in your world,
                Cliff?" (grin). But to be serious, I would dearly love to know how
                you arrived at that conclusion, and perhaps you might explain.
                Perhaps Offlist? (since we're shifting to a new logion).
                > I've always viewed that saying as outlining the steps and stages
                and feelings to be encountered in a supplicant's pursuit of truth
                and possible sequential initiations into the succeedingly higher
                levels of the Thomas Mysteries, as he or she progressed towards the
                ultimate level of spiritual attainment and revelation that seems
                promised. A sort of spiritual "road-map". Very Gnostic stuff, in my
                view, and I see no indication here that Baptism was one of these
                stages-rather the whole thing seems to flow as a consequence of
                persistence in "seeking and finding". But let's hear what you have
                to say.
                >
                > Ron McCann
                > Saskatoon, Canada
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: danw888
                > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:43 PM
                > Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to baptism?
                >
                >
                > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Ron McCann <ronmccann1@> wrote:
                > >
                > > My own view of this logion is that it does not relate to any
                actual
                > baptism ritual. As Toli suggested, we are looking at a new
                theology in
                > Thomas, and this logion merely sets out one priciple of the
                Thomasines
                > (Thomasites?) theology- which seems to be that one could reverse
                the
                > Fall of Man. How they purported to accomplish this, seems not to
                have
                > been preseved. But I see no evidence to suggest that they
                belived to
                > be achieved through baptism or ever practiced that.
                >
                > Hi, Ron -
                >
                > The saying seek until you find, troubled, wonder, reign, rest is
                a
                > baptismal saying.
                >
                > I happen to believe that GT was early and that its theology is
                closely
                > related to the teachings of jesus not a new departure at all. It
                was
                > not some crazy encratite cult made up in syria in the 3rd
                century.
                > According to April DeC a baptismal sitz has been the basic theory
                > since Jonathan Z. Smith published an article on it in 1966.
                (April
                > DeConick Stripped before God VC 45(1991)) She of course has other
                > ideas, which I don't find very convincing.
                >
                > >
                > > Jim raises an interesting point about Mandean influence and
                one I
                > have often pondered. Just how many of the sayings attributed to
                Jesus
                > in the Gospels and Thomas, might, in fact, have originated with
                John
                > the Baptist? Are we perhaps looking at the sayings of two
                different
                > men, in Thomas, and in the Gospels? Sometimes I "hear" two
                different
                > voices there, and have been tempted to separate them.
                >
                > Possible but really hard to come up with criteria for separating
                them.
                > I tend to be a skeptic on sayings research which tries to
                identify
                > those coming from Jesus and those invented in the early churches
                or
                > elsewhere. E. P Sanders has pointed out what a swamp this whole
                line
                > of endeavor is.
                >
                > >
                > > On the related thread of whether Jesus may have actually lived
                and
                > maybe got his education in Jerusalem rather than Nazareth, a
                Mandean
                > Gospel actually says he lived there at the time of the Baptist.
                > >
                > > Ron McCann
                > > Saskatoon, Canada
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: Jim Bauer
                > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 7:40 AM
                > > Subject: Re: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to
                baptism?
                > >
                > >
                > > This is the X-ian interpretation of baptism. The Mandaens
                claimed
                > to be the original religion founded by John the Baptist. I'm not
                a
                > scholar, need to rely on translations, (something now near-
                impossible
                > because of my low-vision), but ISTM that, were Mandaens
                baptizing at
                > the same time as X-ians or whatever eventually developed into
                > X-ianity, could there not be elements of Mandaenism thereby
                entering
                > Thomas?
                > >
                > > As I said, I really don't have the wherewithall to make a case
                for
                > this. I'm wondering if anyone else has any thoughts on this?
                > >
                > > Jim Bauer
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: danw888
                > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 5:40 AM
                > > Subject: [GTh] Re: Does disrobing in saying 37 refer to
                baptism?
                > >
                > > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "danw888" <danw@> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Ron McCann's explanation in message 5104:
                > > > 1) When they can strip naked
                > > > publically, 2) when they can do so without shame, and 3)
                when they
                > > > can do so without FEAR, THEN they will see Jesus again. Our
                author
                > > > here seems to be clearly flagging Genesis 2 where, after the
                > > > disobedience, A & E (1) realized they were naked (2) hid
                themselves
                > > > in shame of their nakedness, and had to be clothed, and (3)
                > > > experienced fear of God. The last line- "and you shall not
                fear"
                > > > addresses this last issue. Prior to the Fall, these were not
                issues.
                > > > The author seems to be saying "when you acquire the state of
                pre
                > fall
                > > > Adam, you will see me again"- that is- when you reverse the
                Fall of
                > > > Man and re-enter Paradise. Jesus will meet them in Paradise.
                In the
                > > > cool of the evening.
                > > >
                > >
                > > This gives us the Thomasine idea of what 'becoming a little
                child
                > > again' means (you can put your clothes under your feet like
                little
                > > children and trample on them - paraphrase). It is a return to
                the
                > > innocence of Eden, an abolishing of body shame.
                > >
                > > Jesus forgave sins. Did the follower of Jesus live in a state
                of
                > > Edenic sinlessness? Of childhood innocence. The previous
                saying to
                > > 37 mentions Jesus' teaching about not worrying about clothing.
                J also
                > > teaches about not worrying about the future. If you are not
                worrying
                > > and are cared for by the father, you are back in the Edenic
                state.
                > >
                > > Admission to the kingdom was via baptism. If you are born
                again, if
                > > you become a child again, by baptism, then the kingdom may
                well be the
                > > psychological state of Adam and Eve in Eden: beloved by god,
                needs
                > > provided for, no worries, no work, seeing the beauty, sense of
                > > dominion over all things, no shame, no guilt.
                > >
                > > Again, the baptismal sign of this state may have been the
                ability to
                > > strip in public and immerse yourself in living water. Sins
                forgiven,
                > > right with god again, the body is purified with water and the
                soul is
                > > filled with the holy spirit.
                > >
                > > I am also reminded that portions of the Jerusalem temple were
                said to
                > > be symbolic of the garden of eden. (See Margaret Barker's book
                Gate
                > > of Heaven)
                > >
                > > Dan
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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