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Re: [GTh] Thomas saying 64 and the synoptics

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  • Toli Bohonik
    This was also held up as spam. Judy Ron wrote... ... This is interesting because it is an anti big business message. Jesus says that businessmen and
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 25, 2007
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      This was also held up as spam.

      Judy

      Ron wrote...

      > ' The master said to his servant, 'Go outside to the
      > streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that
      > they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter the
      > Places of My Father."

      This is interesting because it is an "anti big business" message.
      Jesus says that "businessmen and merchants" will not enter the
      "Places of My Father". By today's standards this seems harsh.

      But in ancient Israel and in the Judah of Jesus' day there were
      enormous economic problems... the business class of both
      houses had fallen into ripping off the common folk. That is the
      main condemnation we read in the prophet Hosea, the merchants
      did not know how to put limits on their greed. Hosea is scathing.

      I was just reading Crossan's "Who killed Jesus?" and he forcefully
      argues that there were major changes in the way business was
      in the early first century. Folks were loosing their land, which
      the Torah does not allow, but it was happening anyway.

      The common folk were being exploited by the business class.
      The businessmen and merchants were seeking new sources
      of revenue and increases in margins. Their exploitation; their
      unlawful taking of ancestral land was extremely troubling to
      the common folk; from which Jesus, his disciples, and the John
      the Baptist sprang.

      If you read the little that has been preserved of what John the
      Baptists preached you are struck with the fact his is almost
      100% an economics messgae.

      Luke 3:10-14 KJV "And the people asked him, saying,
      What shall we do then? He answereth and saith unto them,
      He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none;
      and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. Then came also
      publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what
      shall we do? And he said unto them, Exact no more than that
      which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded
      of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them,
      Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be
      content with your wages."

      I think what we see in GThomas is older and more closely matches
      the original words of Jesus. It more clearly reflects the sad
      economic realities of the times; the exploitation by the business
      class that helped push the nation to civil unrest.

      Jesus would have liked Sarbanes-Oxley.

      One final point, I've never seen "the Places of My Father" used
      in any other place. This is a beautiful and fascinating phrase,
      what and where are the Places of Jesus' Father?

      Toli Bohonik
      Seattle Washington




      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Ron McCann
      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:56 AM
      Subject: Re: [GTh] Thomas saying 64 and the synoptics


      Hello Andrew,
      I won't get into the sources issue in your post, but I wanted to
      point out another difference between the Thomas and the Synoptics
      that is quite striking,
      The excuses for not attending are *really* compelling, in Thomas, but
      elsewhere they are feeble and wishy-washy and could be set
      aside if the invitee really wanted to attend.
      What are we to make of this?

      Ron McCann
      Saskatoon Canada

      At 02:45 AM 24/02/07, Andrew wrote:

      >Thomas 64
      >
      ><QUOTE>
      >Jesus said, "A man had received visitors. And when he had
      >prepared the dinner, he sent his servant to invite guests. He
      >went to the first one and said to him, "My master invites you.'
      >He said, 'I have claims against some merchants. They are coming
      >to me this evening. I must go and give them my orders. I ask to
      >be excused from the dinner.' He went to another and said, 'My
      >master has invited you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a
      >house and am required for the day. I shall not have any spare
      >time.' He went to another and said to him, 'My master invites
      >you.' He said to him, 'My friend is going to get married, and I
      >am to prepare the banquet. I shall not be able to come. I ask to
      >be excused from the dinner.' He went to another and said to him,
      >'My master invites you.' He said to him, 'I have just bought a
      >farm, and I am on my way to collect the rent. I shall not be able
      >to come. I ask to be excused.' The servant returned and said to
      >his master, 'Those whom you invited to the dinner have asked to
      >be excused.' The master said to his servant, 'Go outside to the
      >streets and bring back those whom you happen to meet, so that
      >they may dine.' Businessmen and merchants will not enter the
      >Places of My Father."
      ></QUOTE>
      >
      >Is the longest and maybe most rambling of the sayings and clearly
      >has some relation to the parable of the Great Feast in Matthew
      >22:1-10 and Luke 14:15-24.
      >However in some ways it is longer than either. It has four separate
      >requests to the unwilling guests by the unfortunate servant compared
      >to three in Luke and a request repeated twice in Matthew.
      >
      >Thomas has clearly rewritten his earlier tradition to express his
      >own rejection of involvement in worldly affairs. However his
      >original source may have been a conflation of Matthew and Luke.
      >Tatian's Diatessaron has for the account of the excuses
      >
      ><QUOTE>
      >And they would not come, but began all of them with one voice to make
      >excuse. And the first said unto them, Say to him, I have bought a
      >field, and I
      >must needs go out to see it: I pray thee to release me, for I ask to
      >be excused.
      >And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to examine
      >them: I pray thee to release me, for I ask to be excused. And another said, I
      >have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. And the king sent
      >also other
      >servants, and said, Say to those that were invited, that my feast is
      >ready, and
      >my oxen and my fatlings are slain, and everything is ready: come to
      >the feast.
      >But they made light of it, and went, one to his field, and another to his
      >merchandise:
      ></QUOTE>
      >
      >Here combining together Matthew and Luke has resulted in a list of
      >four requests to the invited guests with at least limited
      >resemblance to the list in Thomas.
      >
      >Andrew Criddle.
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Grondin
      Similarities and differences between my analysis of Matthew s version of the parable and that of the Jesus Seminar (in _The Five Gospels_, which I should have
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 1 10:27 AM
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        Similarities and differences between my analysis of Matthew's version
        of the parable and that of the Jesus Seminar (in _The Five Gospels_,
        which I should have read beforehand, but didn't):

        (1-2) King = God, son = Jesus
        JSem agrees.

        (3) invitees = the Jews
        JSem says 'Israel'. Same difference.

        (4) servants of the King = Christian disciples
        JSem says 'the prophets'. OK, I'll buy that. But it's impossible to
        believe that Matthew didn't _also_ have in mind events involving
        Christians, such as the mob-execution of James the Righteous.
        He may also have had in mind the execution of Jesus, although
        strictly speaking that wouldn't fit the allegorical scheme. (Later
        Christians such as Origin blamed the destruction of Jerusalem
        on the execution of Jesus or James, or both.)

        (5) King's armies = Roman armies, "their city" = Jerusalem
        JSem basically agrees.

        (6) guest not in wedding clothes = converted Jew holding traditions.
        JSem says this guest represents any bad Christian. The goats, as
        opposed to the sheep - or the weeds that are allowed to grow up
        with the good seed, and then separated out at the day of the harvest
        (final judgment). Could very well be. Doesn't rule out what I suggested,
        but other considerations might.

        (6a) "outer darkness" = hell
        This accords with the JSem interpretation above, but I wonder. For
        a Christian, the place of "wailing and the gnashing of teeth" in this
        life would be outside the church. Furthermore, that the ejected guest
        should be "bound hand and foot" might be taken to suggest that he
        would be unable to save himself outside of the church. Nevertheless,
        the allusions are hellian.

        Luke's addendum (second call to non-Jews):
        JSem reads this as the call to the Gentiles. First call to the poor and
        physically disadvantaged among the Jews, then when banquet hall
        not filled up, second call to the Gentiles. (Some early Christians
        thought that the reason why the parousia was delayed was that "the
        banquet hall" wasn't yet filled.) Makes sense, but not yet clear why
        Gentiles had to be forced to come in.

        As to a possible literary relationship to the Diatessaron, I've now read
        the entire parable as it stands there, and find it very difficult to believe
        that the Thomasines could have weeded out the Matthean stuff that
        infests it at every turn - including the very beginning (no wedding, but
        a King and his son involved, which would surely tie in with Thomas'
        end-reference to "the places of my Father".)

        Cheers,
        Mike Grondin
      • paul
        ... Hi Frank, A few months ago I reached the same conclusion on the other Thomas board. I ll repeat that post here. ============================= For those who
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 1 7:12 PM
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          --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McCoy" <FMMCCOY@...> wrote:

          > So, it appears, the scenario was: Th ---> Mt + Lk.

          Hi Frank,
          A few months ago I reached the same conclusion on the other Thomas
          board. I'll repeat that post here.

          =============================

          For those who are interested in the thesis that GThom preceeded both
          Mark and Q, Saying 64 offers some clues about that process.

          Saying 64 is distinctive for its length as well as its parallels
          with Matthew 22:1-14 and Luke 14:13-24. Since the parallels are
          nearly identical, the differences stand out. These differences
          perhaps suggest motives of the communities which produced the later
          versions.

          L. Michael White, in From Jesus To Christianity (2004:
          HarperCollinsSanFrancisco), offers an analysis of this saying, "The
          Great Dinner," which identifies the elements of this saying which
          are common to all three versions pp. 140-1). White believes the
          common elements represent the original Q version, however I think
          the GThom version can also be viewed as the original. In GThom this
          saying has an easily recognizable pattern to it. Except for the
          final sentence, "for buyers and merchants shall not enter the places
          of my Father," the GThom 64 is free of extraneous comment. As Funk
          and others have noted, the last sentence is likely a later addition.

          If GThom is the original then Matthew has altered it to say the Jews
          rejected Jesus and so the message was given to the Romans. In fact
          Matthew includes a clear reference to the Roman destruction of
          Jerusalem: "The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed
          those murderers and burned their city." This is the same reasoning
          employed by Josephus. Matthew's version is also vindictive. Those
          who decline to attend are not merely replaced, they are cast out.
          So the original GThom may not refer to the Jews as the ones who
          rejected the invitation. In GThom those who are replaced are those
          who prioritize physical rather than spiritual concerns.

          Finally, Luke's version is closer to GThom. In both versions there
          is one invited who has married; in Matthew the feast itself is a
          wedding feast. That supports the general idea that Luke has more
          faithfully reproduces Q than Matthew has.

          =============================

          But I also wonder how often the arrow goes in both directions, a
          result of later corrections to GTh from Matt or Luke. I think
          DeConick makes the same point. GTh appears earlier than the
          synoptics, but the degree of correction of our version of GTh from
          the synoptics has not been established.

          regards,

          Paul
        • sarban
          ... From: paul To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Thomas saying 64 and the synoptics ... ...
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 1 9:53 PM
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: paul
            To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 3:12 AM
            Subject: Re: [GTh] Thomas saying 64 and the synoptics


            --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Frank McCoy" <FMMCCOY@...> wrote:

            >> So, it appears, the scenario was: Th ---> Mt + Lk.

            <SNIP>


            >L. Michael White, in From Jesus To Christianity (2004:
            >HarperCollinsSanFrancisco), offers an analysis of this saying, "The
            >Great Dinner," which identifies the elements of this saying which
            >are common to all three versions pp. 140-1). White believes the
            >common elements represent the original Q version, however I think
            >the GThom version can also be viewed as the original. In GThom this
            >saying has an easily recognizable pattern to it. Except for the
            >final sentence, "for buyers and merchants shall not enter the places
            >of my Father," the GThom 64 is free of extraneous comment. As Funk
            >and others have noted, the last sentence is likely a later addition.

            >If GThom is the original then Matthew has altered it to say the Jews
            >rejected Jesus and so the message was given to the Romans. In fact
            >Matthew includes a clear reference to the Roman destruction of
            >Jerusalem: "The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed
            >those murderers and burned their city." This is the same reasoning
            >employed by Josephus. Matthew's version is also vindictive. Those
            >who decline to attend are not merely replaced, they are cast out.
            >So the original GThom may not refer to the Jews as the ones who
            >rejected the invitation. In GThom those who are replaced are those
            >who prioritize physical rather than spiritual concerns.

            >Finally, Luke's version is closer to GThom. In both versions there
            >is one invited who has married; in Matthew the feast itself is a
            >wedding feast. That supports the general idea that Luke has more
            >faithfully reproduces Q than Matthew has.

            =============================
            Hi Paul

            Thanks for an interesting analysis.

            IIUC you are suggesting that

            a/ In stage 1 original Thomas 64 was like final Thomas 64 but without the sentence "for buyers and merchants shall not enter the places of my Father".

            b/ in stage 2 Luke and Matthew modified original Thomas to produce the versions of the parable found in their gospels.

            c/ in stage 3 the last sentence was added to original Thomas 64 to produce final Thomas 64.

            However, this last sentence is so similar in theme to the rest of Thomas 64, (the rejection of those who prioritize physical rather than spiritual concerns) as to make it unlikely IMO that it is an addition several stages later on to original Thomas.

            (If Thomas 64 is post-synoptic developed by successive redaction of the synoptic version then "for buyers and merchants shall not enter the places of my Father". may well be the last stage of the redaction trajectory, but this is a somewhat different idea)

            Andrew Criddle





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William Arnal
            ... I just want to point out that this conclusion s validity has no bearing whether #64 is pre- or post- or simply non-synoptic. The conclusion of #64 is
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 2 6:00 AM
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              Andrew Criddle wrote:

              > (If Thomas 64 is post-synoptic developed by successive redaction of the
              >synoptic version then >"for buyers and merchants shall not enter the places
              >of my Father". may well be the last stage of >the redaction trajectory, but
              >this is a somewhat different idea)

              I just want to point out that this conclusion's validity has no bearing
              whether #64 is pre- or post- or simply non-synoptic. The conclusion of #64
              is clearly a redactional application, regardless of the source of the
              parable.

              regards,
              Bill
              ______________________
              William Arnal
              University of Regina

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            • Michael Grondin
              ... Not sure what you mean by this ... same reasoning , Paul. Josephus didn t blame the destruction of Jerusalem on the death of James, though I believe
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 2 8:44 AM
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                [Paul]:
                > If GThom is the original then Matthew has altered it to say the Jews
                > rejected Jesus and so the message was given to the Romans. In fact
                > Matthew includes a clear reference to the Roman destruction of
                > Jerusalem: "The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed
                > those murderers and burned their city." This is the same reasoning
                > employed by Josephus.

                Not sure what you mean by "this ... same reasoning", Paul. Josephus
                didn't blame the destruction of Jerusalem on the death of James,
                though I believe Origen said he did. (The idea among some Christians
                was that it was God's reprisal for the execution of Jesus, but that the
                time of reprisal had been put off as long as James was alive.)

                [Andrew]:
                > (If Thomas 64 is post-synoptic developed by successive redaction
                > of the synoptic version ...

                The problem with finishing this sentence in any way whatsoever is that
                there's really nothing that can be called "THE synoptic version".

                Regards,
                Mike
              • paul
                ... Hi Mike, I m thinking Matthew s allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem reads like a summary of Josephus statement that the Jews brought this on
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 2 12:37 PM
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                  --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Grondin" <mwgrondin@...> wrote:

                  > Not sure what you mean by "this ... same reasoning", Paul. Josephus
                  > didn't blame the destruction of Jerusalem on the death of James,
                  > though I believe Origen said he did. (The idea among some Christians
                  > was that it was God's reprisal for the execution of Jesus, but that the
                  > time of reprisal had been put off as long as James was alive.)

                  Hi Mike,

                  I'm thinking Matthew's allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem reads
                  like a summary of Josephus' statement that the Jews brought this on
                  themselves by rebelling against Rome:

                  Yet I shall suit my language to the passions I am under, as to the
                  affairs I describe, and must be allowed to indulge some lamentation
                  upon the miseries undergone by my own country; for that it was a
                  seditious temper of our own that destroyed it; and that they were the
                  tyrants among the Jews who brought the Roman power upon us , who
                  unwillingly attacked us, and occasioned the burning of our holy
                  temple; Titus Caesar, who destroyed it, is himself a witness, who,
                  during the entire war, pitied the people who were kept under by the
                  seditious, and did often voluntarily delay the taking of the city, and
                  allowed time to the siege, in order to let the authors have
                  opportunity for repentance. (Josephus, Wars, Preface, Section 4).

                  regards, Paul
                • David Arbuckle
                  supposedly, in the Syriac versions of Josephus it says that The Revolt was brought on by the death of James the Just. dave ...
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 2 6:39 PM
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                    supposedly, in the Syriac versions of Josephus it says
                    that The Revolt was brought on by the death of James
                    the Just.


                    dave
                    --- paul <jpaullanier@...> wrote:

                    > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Grondin"
                    > <mwgrondin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Not sure what you mean by "this ... same
                    > reasoning", Paul. Josephus
                    > > didn't blame the destruction of Jerusalem on the
                    > death of James,
                    > > though I believe Origen said he did. (The idea
                    > among some Christians
                    > > was that it was God's reprisal for the execution
                    > of Jesus, but that the
                    > > time of reprisal had been put off as long as James
                    > was alive.)
                    >
                    > Hi Mike,
                    >
                    > I'm thinking Matthew's allusion to the destruction
                    > of Jerusalem reads
                    > like a summary of Josephus' statement that the Jews
                    > brought this on
                    > themselves by rebelling against Rome:
                    >
                    > Yet I shall suit my language to the passions I am
                    > under, as to the
                    > affairs I describe, and must be allowed to indulge
                    > some lamentation
                    > upon the miseries undergone by my own country; for
                    > that it was a
                    > seditious temper of our own that destroyed it; and
                    > that they were the
                    > tyrants among the Jews who brought the Roman power
                    > upon us , who
                    > unwillingly attacked us, and occasioned the burning
                    > of our holy
                    > temple; Titus Caesar, who destroyed it, is himself a
                    > witness, who,
                    > during the entire war, pitied the people who were
                    > kept under by the
                    > seditious, and did often voluntarily delay the
                    > taking of the city, and
                    > allowed time to the siege, in order to let the
                    > authors have
                    > opportunity for repentance. (Josephus, Wars,
                    > Preface, Section 4).
                    >
                    > regards, Paul
                    >
                    >




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                  • David Arbuckle
                    Mike, supposedly (according to Robert Eisenman, )there are references to James the Just s death as THE reason for the revolt. I have always thought that if
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 2 6:46 PM
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                      Mike,

                      supposedly (according to Robert Eisenman, )there are
                      references to James the Just's death as THE reason for
                      the revolt.

                      I have always thought that if this is true, that one
                      has to wonder who was better known Jesus or James ?
                      and if so, maybe Jesus and his brother thought that
                      the whole messianic thing was sort of something that
                      got passed down through the family ?


                      dave arbuckle

                      sarasota florida
                      --- Michael Grondin <mwgrondin@...> wrote:

                      > [Paul]:
                      > > If GThom is the original then Matthew has altered
                      > it to say the Jews
                      > > rejected Jesus and so the message was given to
                      > the Romans. In fact
                      > > Matthew includes a clear reference to the Roman
                      > destruction of
                      > > Jerusalem: "The king was angry, and he sent his
                      > troops and destroyed
                      > > those murderers and burned their city." This is
                      > the same reasoning
                      > > employed by Josephus.
                      >
                      > Not sure what you mean by "this ... same reasoning",
                      > Paul. Josephus
                      > didn't blame the destruction of Jerusalem on the
                      > death of James,
                      > though I believe Origen said he did. (The idea among
                      > some Christians
                      > was that it was God's reprisal for the execution of
                      > Jesus, but that the
                      > time of reprisal had been put off as long as James
                      > was alive.)
                      >
                      > [Andrew]:
                      > > (If Thomas 64 is post-synoptic developed by
                      > successive redaction
                      > > of the synoptic version ...
                      >
                      > The problem with finishing this sentence in any way
                      > whatsoever is that
                      > there's really nothing that can be called "THE
                      > synoptic version".
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Mike
                      >
                      >
                      >




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                    • David Arbuckle
                      Mike, In Robert Eisenman s book James the Just, he claims that Origen says this because in the original versions of Josephus that is exactly what it says. He
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 2 7:05 PM
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                        Mike,

                        In Robert Eisenman's book James the Just, he claims
                        that Origen says this because in the original versions
                        of Josephus that is exactly what it says.

                        He claims the Church redacted it because they had the
                        copies of Josephus, but apparently a syriac version of
                        it conflicts with it....


                        David Arbuckle

                        sarasota florida
                        --- Michael Grondin <mwgrondin@...> wrote:

                        > [Paul]:
                        > > If GThom is the original then Matthew has altered
                        > it to say the Jews
                        > > rejected Jesus and so the message was given to
                        > the Romans. In fact
                        > > Matthew includes a clear reference to the Roman
                        > destruction of
                        > > Jerusalem: "The king was angry, and he sent his
                        > troops and destroyed
                        > > those murderers and burned their city." This is
                        > the same reasoning
                        > > employed by Josephus.
                        >
                        > Not sure what you mean by "this ... same reasoning",
                        > Paul. Josephus
                        > didn't blame the destruction of Jerusalem on the
                        > death of James,
                        > though I believe Origen said he did. (The idea among
                        > some Christians
                        > was that it was God's reprisal for the execution of
                        > Jesus, but that the
                        > time of reprisal had been put off as long as James
                        > was alive.)
                        >
                        > [Andrew]:
                        > > (If Thomas 64 is post-synoptic developed by
                        > successive redaction
                        > > of the synoptic version ...
                        >
                        > The problem with finishing this sentence in any way
                        > whatsoever is that
                        > there's really nothing that can be called "THE
                        > synoptic version".
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Mike
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • paul
                        ... without the sentence for buyers and merchants shall not enter the places of my Father . ... the versions of the parable found in their gospels. ...
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 3 9:52 AM
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                          --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > IIUC you are suggesting that
                          >
                          > a/ In stage 1 original Thomas 64 was like final Thomas 64 but
                          without the sentence "for buyers and merchants shall not enter the
                          places of my Father".
                          >
                          > b/ in stage 2 Luke and Matthew modified original Thomas to produce
                          the versions of the parable found in their gospels.
                          >
                          > c/ in stage 3 the last sentence was added to original Thomas 64 to
                          produce final Thomas 64.
                          >
                          > However, this last sentence is so similar in theme to the rest of
                          Thomas 64, (the rejection of those who prioritize physical rather than
                          spiritual concerns) as to make it unlikely IMO that it is an addition
                          several stages later on to original Thomas.
                          >
                          > (If Thomas 64 is post-synoptic developed by successive redaction
                          of the synoptic version then "for buyers and merchants shall not enter
                          the places of my Father". may well be the last stage of the redaction
                          trajectory, but this is a somewhat different idea)

                          Hi Andrew,

                          I'll go along with that. Thanks for the observation.

                          regards, Paul
                        • Michael Grondin
                          ... Eisenman speculates way too much to be considered a reputable authority, and James isn t such a major figure in Josephus that this possibility can be
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 4 10:10 PM
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                            David Arbuckle wrote:
                            > In Robert Eisenman's book James the Just, he claims
                            > that Origen says this because in the original versions
                            > of Josephus that is exactly what it says.

                            Eisenman speculates way too much to be considered a
                            reputable authority, and James isn't such a major figure in
                            Josephus that this possibility can be seriously maintained.
                            There's more on this subject in my note of 9/22/06:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gthomas/message/7240

                            > He claims the Church redacted it because they had the
                            > copies of Josephus, but apparently a syriac version of
                            > it conflicts with it....

                            This makes no sense. If the church altered Josephus,
                            why didn't they make it say what Origen claimed it said?
                            (You may be mixing this up with Josephus' Jesus
                            passage - the "Testimonium". That was altered, for sure.)

                            Mike Grondin
                          • David Arbuckle
                            What Eisenman claims is both. He claims the piece in wars concerning Jesus being the Christ and a man of wonders, and such is a definite redaction as it
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 5 1:15 PM
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                              What Eisenman claims is both.

                              He claims the piece in wars concerning Jesus being
                              the Christ and a man of wonders, and such is a
                              definite redaction as it didn't appear in the version
                              that Origen had ( or at least he never mentioned it)
                              but he also claims that originally in wars, that the
                              revolt was blamed on the death of James, and that the
                              version that Origen had makes this claim, he adds that
                              the Church gained possesion of these texts and altered
                              them, but that a syriac version shows the discrepency.

                              James is not a major figure in Josephus, but
                              certainly more important in the scheme of things if
                              one compares the press he received in comparison to
                              Jesus. ( at least in Josephus) Josephus mentions
                              dozens of Messiah types, and gives many of them quite
                              a bit of press, it seems odd that Jesus being the
                              wildly important person christianity has made him that
                              Josephus didn't cover his life more. The fact that his
                              brother and his cousin John the Baptist are given so
                              much more is well, odd.

                              David Arbuckle

                              Sarasota, Florida

                              --- Michael Grondin <mwgrondin@...> wrote:

                              > David Arbuckle wrote:
                              > > In Robert Eisenman's book James the Just, he
                              > claims
                              > > that Origen says this because in the original
                              > versions
                              > > of Josephus that is exactly what it says.
                              >
                              > Eisenman speculates way too much to be considered a
                              > reputable authority, and James isn't such a major
                              > figure in
                              > Josephus that this possibility can be seriously
                              > maintained.
                              > There's more on this subject in my note of 9/22/06:
                              >
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gthomas/message/7240
                              >
                              > > He claims the Church redacted it because they had
                              > the
                              > > copies of Josephus, but apparently a syriac
                              > version of
                              > > it conflicts with it....
                              >
                              > This makes no sense. If the church altered Josephus,
                              > why didn't they make it say what Origen claimed it
                              > said?
                              > (You may be mixing this up with Josephus' Jesus
                              > passage - the "Testimonium". That was altered, for
                              > sure.)
                              >
                              > Mike Grondin
                              >
                              >




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