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RE: [GTh] Copyright Infringement

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  • Rick Hubbard
    Judy wrote: I will be interested to see what Rick makes of his copy when it arrives. You *are* going to review it for us, aren t you, Rick? Yep. Soon as it
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 21, 2007
      Judy wrote:

      I will be interested to see what Rick makes of his copy when it arrives.
      You *are* going to review it for us, aren't you, Rick?

      Yep. Soon as it comes.

      Rick


      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Grondin
      > Sent: Sunday, 21 January 2007 3:42 PM
      > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [GTh] Copyright Infringement
      >
      > Latest news on this front is that Gary Hudson has responded
      > in timely fashion to my notes to Vesica Press. Among other
      > things, he indirectly reminded me that - contrary to my
      > statement in an earlier note - we _had_ been in contact a
      > year and a half ago on this very issue.
      >
      > Although I didn't recall it, we did in fact have a brief
      > exchange back on June 28, 2005. Judy's memory is correct that
      > back then she and I and Gary were active on the
      > GospelofThomas list. Soon after I had had an exchange with
      > him on that list, he sent me a note requesting permission to
      > use my "GoT translations"
      > in a "forthcoming book". My complete reply to him was as follows:
      > --------------------------------------------------------------
      > ---------
      > The only "translation" that's mine is the word-for-word
      > translation that appears under each Coptic line. I've never
      > done a translation other than that. The translation up top of
      > each saying is Lambdin's. I'm not sure how one could use the
      > word-for-word by itself, since in a lot of places it's
      > awkward, or needs explanation for other reasons (such as that
      > Coptic had no true passive voice).
      > Some folks have used the word-for-word for the purpose of
      > checking their own translations, and you can see how they
      > worded their acknowledgements at
      > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/z_transl.htm
      > ("Notices in Print"). You can do that too, if you want.
      > As for quoting the word-for-word in the body of a book,
      > though, I'd have serious doubts whether that's a good thing to do.
      > -------------------- (end quote) ----------------------------------
      >
      > Mr. Hudson now says that he took these comments to be "tacit
      > approval" of some sort or other, though he admits he might
      > have misunderstood. Indeed. At any rate, I'll leave it at
      > that for now, since I'm in communication with him, but I did
      > want to correct my one misstatement and fill in some
      > background information that casts the situation in a somewhat
      > different light.
      >
      > Mike
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------
      > ----------
      > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
      > Interlinear translation:
      > http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >



      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
      Interlinear translation: http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Michael Grondin
      ... Just to let you know, Judy, that I m also getting a copy of this book in the near future. (I was advised that I should do that before taking any further
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 22, 2007
        [Judy wrote]:
        > I will be interested to see what Rick makes of his
        > copy when it arrives.

        Just to let you know, Judy, that I'm also getting a copy of
        this book in the near future. (I was advised that I should do
        that before taking any further action.) Two copies, in fact,
        since I first ordered it from Amazon, then Gary Hudson
        said he would send me a copy - alas too late to cancel
        my Amazon order. So sometime late this week or early
        next, Rick and I can compare impressions.

        Best,
        Mike
      • Paul Lanier
        Hi Judy, A couple of thoughts based on the Business Law class I took last year. An attorney should be consulted but this is my understanding. A contractual
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 22, 2007
          Hi Judy,

          A couple of thoughts based on the Business Law class I took last year. An attorney should be consulted but this is my understanding.

          A contractual agreement does not exist unless both parties agree to specifics. If a contract is vague it cannot be enforced. Moreover both sides must receive something of value in order for a contract to exist. The safest way to respond to an offer may be to ignore it. In that case there is no contract.

          If one gives something to another without compensation, it's a gift and it must have been given without any doubt. The mere claim that the recipient thought it was a gift is insufficient.

          Finally, in the absence of a specific agreement, copyright is always retained by the author.

          regards, Paul


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Judy Redman <jredman@...>
          To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:21:11 PM
          Subject: RE: [GTh] Copyright Infringement

          So Mike, you now know that if anyone emails you in future about using your
          work in a forthcoming book, you should be more careful about how you reply
          and ask some questions about how it is going to be used and on the basis of
          that put restrictions on how it needs to be acknowledged (or whether you're
          happy to have it used in that way at all).

          Your interlinear *is* very useful, and it's quite likely that other people
          might well want to use it for similar purposes to Hudson, in the same way
          that a large number of Christians who have no Greek use interlinears. In
          other words, some people use them to help them understand what people who do
          know Greek well are saying, while others use them to validate creative
          theories about the meaning of the text. You may get more such requests

          My impression of many of the people on the GospelofThomas list is that they
          are enthusiastic amateurs, many of whom are looking at the text as
          Scripture, something on which to base how they live their lives. If Hudson
          has, indeed, decided to publish his own book, or is using a publishing
          company owned/run an equally naive friend, this is probably a genuine
          mistake. Which doesn't, of course, remove the problem that your text has
          been published as part of a book which probably contains material with which
          you would prefer not to be associated. Maybe an erratum to be included with
          the rest of the print run?

          I will be interested to see what Rick makes of his copy when it arrives.
          You *are* going to review it for us, aren't you, Rick?

          Judy

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: gthomas@yahoogroups .com
          > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Michael Grondin
          > Sent: Sunday, 21 January 2007 3:42 PM
          > To: gthomas@yahoogroups .com
          > Subject: Re: [GTh] Copyright Infringement
          >
          > Latest news on this front is that Gary Hudson has responded
          > in timely fashion to my notes to Vesica Press. Among other
          > things, he indirectly reminded me that - contrary to my
          > statement in an earlier note - we _had_ been in contact a
          > year and a half ago on this very issue.
          >
          > Although I didn't recall it, we did in fact have a brief
          > exchange back on June 28, 2005. Judy's memory is correct that
          > back then she and I and Gary were active on the
          > GospelofThomas list. Soon after I had had an exchange with
          > him on that list, he sent me a note requesting permission to
          > use my "GoT translations"
          > in a "forthcoming book". My complete reply to him was as follows:
          > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
          > ---------
          > The only "translation" that's mine is the word-for-word
          > translation that appears under each Coptic line. I've never
          > done a translation other than that. The translation up top of
          > each saying is Lambdin's. I'm not sure how one could use the
          > word-for-word by itself, since in a lot of places it's
          > awkward, or needs explanation for other reasons (such as that
          > Coptic had no true passive voice).
          > Some folks have used the word-for-word for the purpose of
          > checking their own translations, and you can see how they
          > worded their acknowledgements at
          > http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/ 9068/z_transl. htm
          > ("Notices in Print"). You can do that too, if you want.
          > As for quoting the word-for-word in the body of a book,
          > though, I'd have serious doubts whether that's a good thing to do.
          > ------------ -------- (end quote) ------------ --------- --------- ----
          >
          > Mr. Hudson now says that he took these comments to be "tacit
          > approval" of some sort or other, though he admits he might
          > have misunderstood. Indeed. At any rate, I'll leave it at
          > that for now, since I'm in communication with him, but I did
          > want to correct my one misstatement and fill in some
          > background information that casts the situation in a somewhat
          > different light.
          >
          > Mike
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
          > ----------
          > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home. epix.net/ ~miser17/ Thomas.html
          > Interlinear translation:
          > http://www.geocitie s.com/mwgrondin/ x_transl. htm
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >






          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
          in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
          http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ron McCann
          ... You can consent to, or waive a copyright infringement without any consideration being offered, accepted or exchanged. No contract need be involved. Ron
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 22, 2007
            At 09:41 PM 22/01/07, Paul wrote:

            >Hi Judy,
            >
            >A couple of thoughts based on the Business Law class I took last
            >year. An attorney should be consulted but this is my understanding.
            >
            >A contractual agreement does not exist unless both parties agree to
            >specifics. If a contract is vague it cannot be enforced. Moreover
            >both sides must receive something of value in order for a contract
            >to exist. The safest way to respond to an offer may be to ignore it.
            >In that case there is no contract.
            >
            >If one gives something to another without compensation, it's a gift
            >and it must have been given without any doubt. The mere claim that
            >the recipient thought it was a gift is insufficient.
            >
            >Finally, in the absence of a specific agreement, copyright is always
            >retained by the author.
            >
            >regards, Paul

            You can consent to, or waive a copyright infringement without
            any"consideration"
            being offered, accepted or exchanged. No contract need be involved.

            Ron McCann
            Barrister & Solicitor
            (Retired).
          • Judy Redman
            Paul, I m not a lawyer and I live in Australia, so I don t want to venture an opinion about US copyright law, but what is legal and what is sensible are
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 22, 2007
              Paul,

              I'm not a lawyer and I live in Australia, so I don't want to venture an
              opinion about US copyright law, but what is legal and what is sensible are
              sometimes two different things.

              Because Mike isn't (as far as I know) earning any money from his
              interlinear, taking legal action against people who use it inappropriately
              is a nuisance and at one level probably not worth the bother. At another
              level, it is quite likely that his work is now in published form in a book
              that contains interpretations of Thomas with which he doesn't want to be
              associated and while (as I understand it) he isn't a professional Thomas
              scholar, he still values his good name within the scholarly community. We
              all know the background, but there are Thomas scholars not on this list (!)
              who might well pick up Hudson's book, decide it's very lightweight and
              therefore make a wrong judgement about Mike for agreeing to have his
              interlinear published in it.

              In the situation at the time, simply ignoring the email would have come
              across as rude and arrogant. It would have been better if, when Hudson
              initially posed his question, Mike had said something like "I'm not happy to
              have the interlinear published without my seeing the text with which it's
              going to be associated. Feel free to point people to the URL, though, and
              they can download it with my blessing." Instead, he let his natural modesty
              lead the way and he said something that was a bit vague and was
              misinterpreted and he is now in an awkward situation, even if he has the law
              on his side.

              Judy

              --
              Rev Judy Redman
              Uniting Church Chaplain
              University of New England
              Armidale 2351 Australia
              ph: +61 2 6773 3739
              fax: +61 2 6773 3749
              web: http://www.une.edu.au/chaplaincy/uniting/
              email: jredman@...



              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Lanier
              > Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2007 2:42 PM
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [GTh] Copyright Infringement
              >
              > Hi Judy,
              >
              > A couple of thoughts based on the Business Law class I took
              > last year. An attorney should be consulted but this is my
              > understanding.
              >
              > A contractual agreement does not exist unless both parties
              > agree to specifics. If a contract is vague it cannot be
              > enforced. Moreover both sides must receive something of value
              > in order for a contract to exist. The safest way to respond
              > to an offer may be to ignore it. In that case there is no contract.
              >
              > If one gives something to another without compensation, it's
              > a gift and it must have been given without any doubt. The
              > mere claim that the recipient thought it was a gift is insufficient.
              >
              > Finally, in the absence of a specific agreement, copyright is
              > always retained by the author.
              >
              > regards, Paul
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: Judy Redman <jredman@...>
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:21:11 PM
              > Subject: RE: [GTh] Copyright Infringement
              >
              > So Mike, you now know that if anyone emails you in future
              > about using your work in a forthcoming book, you should be
              > more careful about how you reply and ask some questions about
              > how it is going to be used and on the basis of that put
              > restrictions on how it needs to be acknowledged (or whether
              > you're happy to have it used in that way at all).
              >
              > Your interlinear *is* very useful, and it's quite likely that
              > other people might well want to use it for similar purposes
              > to Hudson, in the same way that a large number of Christians
              > who have no Greek use interlinears. In other words, some
              > people use them to help them understand what people who do
              > know Greek well are saying, while others use them to validate
              > creative theories about the meaning of the text. You may get
              > more such requests
              >
              > My impression of many of the people on the GospelofThomas
              > list is that they are enthusiastic amateurs, many of whom are
              > looking at the text as Scripture, something on which to base
              > how they live their lives. If Hudson has, indeed, decided to
              > publish his own book, or is using a publishing company
              > owned/run an equally naive friend, this is probably a genuine
              > mistake. Which doesn't, of course, remove the problem that
              > your text has been published as part of a book which probably
              > contains material with which you would prefer not to be
              > associated. Maybe an erratum to be included with the rest of
              > the print run?
              >
              > I will be interested to see what Rick makes of his copy when
              > it arrives.
              > You *are* going to review it for us, aren't you, Rick?
              >
              > Judy
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: gthomas@yahoogroups .com
              > > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Michael Grondin
              > > Sent: Sunday, 21 January 2007 3:42 PM
              > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups .com
              > > Subject: Re: [GTh] Copyright Infringement
              > >
              > > Latest news on this front is that Gary Hudson has responded
              > in timely
              > > fashion to my notes to Vesica Press. Among other things, he
              > indirectly
              > > reminded me that - contrary to my statement in an earlier note - we
              > > _had_ been in contact a year and a half ago on this very issue.
              > >
              > > Although I didn't recall it, we did in fact have a brief
              > exchange back
              > > on June 28, 2005. Judy's memory is correct that back then she and I
              > > and Gary were active on the GospelofThomas list. Soon after
              > I had had
              > > an exchange with him on that list, he sent me a note requesting
              > > permission to use my "GoT translations"
              > > in a "forthcoming book". My complete reply to him was as follows:
              > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
              > > ---------
              > > The only "translation" that's mine is the word-for-word translation
              > > that appears under each Coptic line. I've never done a translation
              > > other than that. The translation up top of each saying is
              > Lambdin's.
              > > I'm not sure how one could use the word-for-word by itself,
              > since in a
              > > lot of places it's awkward, or needs explanation for other reasons
              > > (such as that Coptic had no true passive voice).
              > > Some folks have used the word-for-word for the purpose of checking
              > > their own translations, and you can see how they worded their
              > > acknowledgements at http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/
              > 9068/z_transl.
              > > htm ("Notices in Print"). You can do that too, if you want.
              > > As for quoting the word-for-word in the body of a book, though, I'd
              > > have serious doubts whether that's a good thing to do.
              > > ------------ -------- (end quote) ------------ --------- ---------
              > > ----
              > >
              > > Mr. Hudson now says that he took these comments to be
              > "tacit approval"
              > > of some sort or other, though he admits he might have
              > misunderstood.
              > > Indeed. At any rate, I'll leave it at that for now, since I'm in
              > > communication with him, but I did want to correct my one
              > misstatement
              > > and fill in some background information that casts the
              > situation in a
              > > somewhat different light.
              > >
              > > Mike
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
              > > ----------
              > > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home. epix.net/ ~miser17/
              > > Thomas.html Interlinear translation:
              > > http://www.geocitie s.com/mwgrondin/ x_transl. htm
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ______________________________________________________________
              > ______________________
              > Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
              > in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
              > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------
              > ----------
              > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > Interlinear translation:
              > http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Michael Grondin
              Hi Judy, ... Not a dime. ... Exactly so. ... On the up side, Gary Hudson tells me that only one copy had been sold at the time he wrote. Evidently, Rick and I
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 22, 2007
                Hi Judy,
                Some responses to your latest note:

                > Because Mike isn't (as far as I know) earning
                > any money from his interlinear ...

                Not a dime.

                > ... it is quite likely that [Mike's] work is now in published
                > form in a book that contains interpretations of Thomas
                > with which he doesn't want to be associated and while
                > (as I understand it) he isn't a professional Thomas scholar,
                > he still values his good name within the scholarly community.

                Exactly so.

                > We all know the background, but there are Thomas scholars
                > not on this list (!) who might well pick up Hudson's book,
                > decide it's very lightweight and therefore make a wrong
                > judgement about Mike for agreeing to have his interlinear
                > published in it.

                On the up side, Gary Hudson tells me that only one copy
                had been sold at the time he wrote. Evidently, Rick and I
                have accounted for a 200% increase in sales! But yes,
                whether I'm inclined to let it slide or not depends a lot on
                what's in the book. I suspect I won't like it, but we'll see.

                > It would have been better if, when Hudson initially posed
                > his question, Mike had said something like "I'm not happy
                > to have the interlinear published without my seeing the text
                > with which it's going to be associated. ..." Instead, he let
                > his natural modesty lead the way and he said something
                > that was a bit vague and was misinterpreted ...

                I look at it as realism, not modesty. I can see that what I
                was thinking at the time I wrote the note wasn't whether
                _Gary_ should publish the interlinear, but whether _anyone_
                should publish it in current form. Maybe this confused him,
                but when I concluded that I didn't think it was a good idea
                in general, I thought that the implication of that for his
                specific request was clear enough. In future, I'll shoot
                down the request first and ask questions later!

                Regards,
                Mike
              • Paul Lanier
                Thanks Ron, What I m saying is that if you just ignore a request for use of material then use of the material cannot be considered by contract nor gift. It s
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 23, 2007
                  Thanks Ron,
                  What I'm saying is that if you just ignore a request for use of material then use of the material cannot be considered by contract nor gift. It's just theft :)
                  regards, Paul

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Ron McCann <ronmccann1@...>
                  To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 8:58:12 PM
                  Subject: Re: [GTh] Copyright Infringement













                  At 09:41 PM 22/01/07, Paul wrote:



                  >Hi Judy,

                  >

                  >A couple of thoughts based on the Business Law class I took last

                  >year. An attorney should be consulted but this is my understanding.

                  >

                  >A contractual agreement does not exist unless both parties agree to

                  >specifics. If a contract is vague it cannot be enforced. Moreover

                  >both sides must receive something of value in order for a contract

                  >to exist. The safest way to respond to an offer may be to ignore it.

                  >In that case there is no contract.

                  >

                  >If one gives something to another without compensation, it's a gift

                  >and it must have been given without any doubt. The mere claim that

                  >the recipient thought it was a gift is insufficient.

                  >

                  >Finally, in the absence of a specific agreement, copyright is always

                  >retained by the author.

                  >

                  >regards, Paul



                  You can consent to, or waive a copyright infringement without

                  any"consideration"

                  being offered, accepted or exchanged. No contract need be involved.



                  Ron McCann

                  Barrister & Solicitor

                  (Retired).














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