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[GTh] Deconick's Kernel (?)

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  • dagoi@aol.com
    In a message dated 9/25/6 9:14:08 PM, Dave Renfro wrote:
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 26, 2006
      In a message dated 9/25/6 9:14:08 PM, Dave Renfro wrote:

      << [ ] the Deconick Kernel as sent to me from Mike

      [ ] There are some minor differences in the book.

      [ ] parallels to the Gospel of Mark that date it.

      Dave



      [ ]

      2, 4b, 5, 6b&c (but not d-e), 8, 9, 10, 11a*, 14b (but not c),

      15, 16a&b (but not c), 17, 20, 21b&d&e, 23a*, 24b, 25, 26, 30-36,

      38a*, 39-42, 45-48, 54-55, 57-58, 60a*, 61a*, 62-63, 64a*, 65-66,

      68a*, 69a&c, 71-74, 76, 78-79, 81-82, 86, 89-99, 100a&b (but not

      c), 102-104, 107, 109, 111a (but not b or c).


      * = 'but not b'


      Don't ask me what portion of the saying the small letters refer

      to. [ ] I can't find

      any place where she says.


      Mike
      >>

      Go over this then and correct where I may have picked the wrong b's ans c's
      etc. It's good to be on the same page.
      Maybe she deals with some passage that I have mislabelled.
      I also have the list then of what is not included but one long post is enough
      for now.

      Bill

      /////////////////////////////////////
      Deconick's Kernel / Scholars ed.
      (some a b c might be wrong. I had to guess)
      ////////////////////////////////////


      2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find.
      When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are
      disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after
      they have reigned they will rest.]"

      4b.
      For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."

      5 Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden
      from you will be disclosed to you.

      For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is
      nothing buried that will not be raised."]

      6b
      Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are
      disclosed before heaven.

      8 And he said, The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into
      the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them
      the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the
      little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish.
      Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!

      9 Jesus said, Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and
      scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and
      gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in
      the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns,
      and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell
      on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per
      measure and one hundred twenty per measure.

      10 Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it
      until it blazes."

      11a
      Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass
      away.

      14b
      When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when
      people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick
      among them.

      17 Jesus said, "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has
      heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the
      human heart."

      20 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what Heaven's kingdom is like."

      He said to them, It's like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but
      when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and
      becomes a shelter for birds of the sky.

      21b
      He said, They are like little children living in a field that is not theirs.
      when the owners of the field come, they will say, "Give us back
      our field." They take off their clothes in front of them in order to
      give it back to them, and they return their field to them.

      21 d,e
      As for you, then, be on guard against the world. Prepare yourselves
      with great strength, so the robbers can't find a way to get to you,
      for the trouble you expect will come.

      Let there be among you a person who understands.

      23a
      Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one from a thousand and two from ten
      thousand,

      24b
      He said to them, "Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is
      light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If
      it does not shine, it is dark."

      25 Jesus said, "Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like
      the pupil of your eye."

      26 Jesus said, "You see the sliver in your friend's eye, but you don't see
      the timber in your own eye. When you take the timber out of
      your own eye, then you will see well enough to remove the
      sliver from your friend's eye."

      30 Jesus said, "Where there are three deities, they are divine. Where
      there are two or one, I am with that one."

      31 Jesus said, "No prophet is welcome on his home turf; doctors don't
      cure those who know them."

      32 Jesus said, "A city built on a high hill and fortified cannot fall, nor can
      it be hidden."

      33 Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim
      from your rooftops.

      After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one
      put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so
      that all who come and go will see its light."

      34 Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a bind person, both of them will fall
      into a hole."

      35 Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by
      force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."

      36 Jesus said, "Do not fret, from morning to evening and from evening
      to morning, [about your food--what you're going to eat, or about
      your clothing--] what you are going to wear. [You're much
      better than the lilies, which neither card nor spin.

      As for you, when you have no garment, what will you put on? Who
      might add to your stature? That very one will give you your
      garment

      38 a
      Jesus said, "Often you have desired to hear these sayings that I am
      speaking to you, and you have no one else from whom to hear
      them.

      39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of
      knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor
      have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

      As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."

      40 Jesus said, "A grapevine has been planted apart from the Father.
      Since it is not strong, it will be pulled up by its root and will
      perish."

      41 Jesus said, "Whoever has something in hand will be given more, and
      whoever has nothing will be deprived of even the little they
      have."

      42 Jesus said, "Be passersby."

      45 Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs
      gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit.

      Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons
      produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their
      hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart
      they produce evil."

      46 Jesus said, "From Adam to John the Baptist, among those born of
      women, no one is so much greater than John the Baptist that his
      eyes should not be averted.

      But I have said that whoever among you becomes a child will recognize
      the kingdom and will become greater than John."

      47 Jesus said, "A person cannot mount two horses or bend two bows.

      And a slave cannot serve two masters, otherwise that slave will honor
      the one and offend the other.

      "Nobody drinks aged wine and immediately wants to drink young wine.
      Young wine is not poured into old wineskins, or they might
      break, and aged wine is not poured into a new wineskin, or it
      might spoil.

      An old patch is not sewn onto a new garment, since it would create a
      tear."

      48 Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they
      will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."

      54 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the poor, for to you belongs Heaven's
      kingdom."

      55 Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my
      disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and
      carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me." 56 Jesus said,
      "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass,
      and whoever has discovered a carcass, of that person the world
      is not worthy."

      57 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a person who has [good] seed.
      His enemy came during the night and sowed weeds among the
      good seed. The person did not let the workers pull up the weeds,
      but said to them, "No, otherwise you might go to pull up the
      weeds and pull up the wheat along with them." For on the day of
      the harvest the weeds will be conspicuous, and will be pulled up
      and burned.

      58 Jesus said, "Congratulations to the person who has toiled and has
      found life."

      60a
      He saw a Samaritan carrying a lamb and going to Judea. He said to his
      disciples, "that person ... around the lamb." They said to him, "So
      that he may kill it and eat it." He said to them, "He will not eat it
      while it is alive, but only after he has killed it and it has become a
      carcass."

      61a
      Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live."

      62 Jesus said, "I disclose my mysteries to those [who are worthy] of [my]
      mysteries.

      Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

      63 Jesus said, There was a rich person who had a great deal of money.
      He said, "I shall invest my money so that I may sow, reap, plant,
      and fill my storehouses with produce, that I may lack nothing."
      These were the things he was thinking in his heart, but that
      very night he died. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!

      64a
      Jesus said, A person was receiving guests. When he had prepared
      the dinner, he sent his slave to invite the guests.

      65 He said, A [...] person owned a vineyard and rented it to some
      farmers, so they could work it and he could collect its crop from
      them. He sent his slave so the farmers would give him the
      vineyard's crop. They grabbed him, beat him, and almost killed
      him, and the slave returned and told his master. His master said,
      "Perhaps he didn't know them." He sent another slave, and the
      farmers beat that one as well. Then the master sent his son and
      said, "Perhaps they'll show my son some respect." Because the
      farmers knew that he was the heir to the vineyard, they
      grabbed him and killed him. Anyone here with two ears had
      better listen!

      66 Jesus said, "Show me the stone that the builders rejected: that is the
      keystone."

      68a
      Jesus said, "Congratulations to you when you are hated and
      persecuted;

      69a
      Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who have been persecuted in
      their hearts

      69c
      Congratulations to those who go hungry, so the stomach of the one in
      want may be filled."

      71 Jesus said, "I will destroy [this] house, and no one will be able to build
      it [...]."

      72 A [person said] to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's
      possessions with me."

      He said to the person, "Mister, who made me a divider?"

      He turned to his disciples and said to them, "I'm not a divider, am I?"

      73 Jesus said, "The crop is huge but the workers are few, so beg the
      harvest boss to dispatch workers to the fields."

      74 He said, "Lord, there are many around the drinking trough, but
      there is nothing in the well."

      76a
      Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a merchant who had a supply
      of merchandise and found a peal. That merchant was prudent; he
      sold the merchandise and bought the single pearl for himself.

      78 Jesus said, "Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a
      reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft
      clothes, [like your] rulers and your powerful ones? They are
      dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."

      79 A woman in the crowd said to him, "Lucky are the womb that bore
      you and the breasts that fed you."

      He said to [her], "Lucky are those who have heard the word of the
      Father and have truly kept it. For there will be days when you
      will say, 'Lucky are the womb that has not conceived and the
      breasts that have not given milk.'"

      81 Jesus said, "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who
      has power renounce."

      82 Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far
      from me is far from the kingdom."

      86 Jesus said, "[Foxes have] their dens and birds have their nests, but
      human beings have no place to lay down and rest."

      89 Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you
      understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who
      made the outside?"

      90 Jesus said, "Come to me, for my yoke is comfortable and my lordship
      is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves."

      91 They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in
      you."

      He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you
      have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you
      do not know how to examine the present moment.

      92 Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.

      In the past, however, I did not tell you the things about which you
      asked me then. Now I am willing to tell them, but you are not
      seeking them."

      93 "Don't give what is holy to dogs, for they might throw them upon the
      manure pile. Don't throw pearls [to] pigs, or they might ... it [...]."

      94 Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will
      be opened."

      95 [Jesus said], "If you have money, don't lend it at interest. Rather,
      give [it] to someone from whom you won't get it back."

      96 Jesus [said], The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little
      leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread.
      Anyone here with two ears had better listen!

      97 Jesus said, The [Father's] kingdom is like a woman who was carrying a
      [jar] full of meal. While she was walking along [a] distant road, the
      handle of the jar broke and the meal spilled behind her [along]
      the road. She didn't know it; she hadn't noticed a problem. When
      she reached her house, she put the jar down and discovered
      that it was empty.

      98 Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill
      someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and
      thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in.
      Then he killed the powerful one.

      99 The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are
      standing outside."

      He said to them, "Those here who do what my Father wants are my
      brothers and my mother. They are the ones who will enter my
      Father's kingdom."

      100a+b
      They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman
      emperor's people demand taxes from us."

      He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give
      God what belongs to God

      102 Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the
      cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."

      103 Jesus said, "Congratulations to those who know where the rebels
      are going to attack. [They] can get going, collect their imperial
      resources, and be prepared before the rebels arrive."

      104 They said to Jesus, "Come, let us pray today, and let us fast."

      Jesus said, "What sin have I committed, or how have I been undone?
      Rather, when the groom leaves the bridal suite, then let people
      fast and pray."

      107 Jesus said, The kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred
      sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-
      nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled,
      he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety- nine.'

      109 Jesus said, The (Father's) kingdom is like a person who had a
      treasure hidden in his field but did not know it. And [when] he
      died he left it to his [son]. The son [did] not know about it either.
      He took over the field and sold it. The buyer went plowing,
      [discovered] the treasure, and began to lend money at interest to
      whomever he wished.

      111a
      Jesus said, "The heavens and the earth will roll up in your
      presence,

      /////////////////////////////
    • David Renfro
      Bill, if you use me as your source in deciphering Kernel Thomas, I fear you will soon out pace what knowledge I have to offer. I m pretty sure you ll need to
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 27, 2006
        Bill, if you use me as your source in deciphering Kernel Thomas, I fear you will soon out pace what knowledge I have to offer. I'm pretty sure you'll need to purchase the Deconick book eventually.
        I'll look over what you've got here and if anything jumps out, I'll let you know. Fundamentally you've got enough information here to begin your analysis of whether Clements is responsible for the "Kernel", and compare the "Kernel" material to Synoptic parallels for the purpose of dating it. You may wish to research
        Jack Kilmon's work on the Mark/Thomas parallels as well.
        Dave R.
      • jredman@pobox.une.edu.au
        The paperback version of the DeConick book isn t all that expensive. It cost me about $35 Australian to have it posted to me from the UK. I have found it
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 28, 2006
          The paperback version of the DeConick book isn't all that expensive. It
          cost me about $35 Australian to have it posted to me from the UK. I have
          found it worth the expenditure.

          Judy

          > Bill, if you use me as your source in deciphering Kernel Thomas, I fear
          > you will soon out pace what knowledge I have to offer. I'm pretty sure
          > you'll need to purchase the Deconick book eventually.
          > I'll look over what you've got here and if anything jumps out, I'll let
          > you know. Fundamentally you've got enough information here to begin
          > your analysis of whether Clements is responsible for the "Kernel", and
          > compare the "Kernel" material to Synoptic parallels for the purpose of
          > dating it. You may wish to research
          > Jack Kilmon's work on the Mark/Thomas parallels as well.
          > Dave R.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
          > Interlinear translation: http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Rogier van Vlissingen
          ... You may wish to research ... Please clarify. I went to Jack Kilmon s site and could not locate any such...??? thanks;
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 28, 2006
            --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, David Renfro <brain32771@...> wrote:
            You may wish to research
            > Jack Kilmon's work on the Mark/Thomas parallels as well.
            > Dave R.
            >

            Please clarify. I went to Jack Kilmon's site and could not locate any
            such...???
            thanks;
          • Wade Greiner
            ... have ... I fear ... I ll let ... Just to add to the confusion a bit: in DeConick s paper she presented the Kernal with sayings divided up with sub letters
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 28, 2006
              --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Judy Redman, in response to Dave
              Renfro's message, wrote:
              >
              > The paperback version of the DeConick book isn't all that expensive. It
              > cost me about $35 Australian to have it posted to me from the UK. I
              have
              > found it worth the expenditure.
              >
              > Judy
              >
              > > Bill, if you use me as your source in deciphering Kernel Thomas,
              I fear
              > > you will soon out pace what knowledge I have to offer. I'm pretty sure
              > > you'll need to purchase the Deconick book eventually.
              > > I'll look over what you've got here and if anything jumps out,
              I'll let
              > > you know. Fundamentally you've got enough information here to begin
              > > your analysis of whether Clements is responsible for the "Kernel", and
              > > compare the "Kernel" material to Synoptic parallels for the purpose of
              > > dating it. You may wish to research
              > > Jack Kilmon's work on the Mark/Thomas parallels as well.
              > > Dave R.

              Just to add to the confusion a bit: in DeConick's paper she presented
              the Kernal with sayings divided up with sub letters (like saying 4b,
              for example), but before finishing the book it was decided to switch
              to a system that had become a standard of sorts in the meantime -
              namely dividing up the sayings with sub numbers. For example saying
              47 is divided into 47.1, 47.2, 47.3, 47.4, and 47.5. The sub number
              scheme is used both in the books "Recovering the Original Gospel of
              Thomas" and "The Original Gospel of Thomas in Translation."

              To make matters even a bit worse, during proof correction a couple of
              kernal sayings were lost in the list presented in "Recovering" the
              hardback. April told the publisher about the mistake and they said it
              would be corrected in the paperback, but I haven't looked to see if it
              was or not.

              April got author's copies of "The Original Gospel in Translation" on
              Tuesday. It is too bad it couldn't have come out nearer in time to
              "Recovering" but it did give her a chance to get to Egypt to do her
              physical examination of the actual document and to see all the
              fragments as well before publishing. "The Original Gospel in
              Translation" looks really nice and will be a great Thomas resource, I
              think. (Of course she is family and therefore I am a bit biased...)
              It includes a summary of the conclusions of "Recovering", an original
              translation of the kernal and the complete gospel set out separately
              and a commentary. For each saying in the commentary she sets out her
              translation, the original coptic and greek (if a greek fragment is
              available), indicates the attribution in her theory (kernal,
              accretion, etc.), has a section for text and translation issues if
              appropriate to the saying, has an interpretative comment for each
              saying, a discussion of the source for the saying in other scholarly
              literature, a list of the literature parallels (gospel and otherwise -
              even including some interesting islamic tradition parallels), and a
              bibliography to other places to read about the saying. There is also
              a nice chart setting out possible semitisms in the kernal and the
              accretive material separately.

              My understanding is that there is likely to be a paperback edition
              published sometime in 2007.

              By the way, it has been pointed out to me that at least one person
              tried to email me from a post on this list in response to my last
              posting and their mail went to an account that I no longer have access
              to but which didn't bounce. I think the problem has been corrected
              now. If you email to me it should go to wgreiner@.... If
              it doesn't go to that address I won't see it. So sorry if I didn't
              respond to anyone - I probably didn't get your message!

              Wade
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