Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [GTh] GTh 114

Expand Messages
  • sarban
    ... From: CJED5@aol.com To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114 ... See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
      ----- Original Message -----

      From: CJED5@...

      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM

      Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114



      > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
      > hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
      > angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
      > maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
      > of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
      > about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)

      > Jed Chandler



      See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts from Theodotus



      21 The Valentinians say that the finest emanation of Wisdom is spoken of in "He created them in the image of God, male and female created he them." Now the males from this emanation are the "election," but the females are the "calling" and they call the male beings angelic, and the females themselves, the superior seed. So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female seed was taken from him and became Eve, from whom the females are derived, as the males are from him. Therefore the males are drawn together with the Logos, but the females, becoming men, are united to the angels and pass into the Pleroma. Therefore the woman is said to be changed into a man, and the church here on earth into angels



      Andrew Criddle








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • CJED5@aol.com
      In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@supanet.com ... seed was taken from him and became Eve Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 9, 2006
        In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@...
        writes:




        >>So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female
        seed was taken from him >>and became Eve


        Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic ascent of the soul, through the genders
        with the eventual loss of the feminine. It seems to indicate a primordial
        hermaphrodite or unsexed human creation before the female split from Adam - and
        yet it is a commentary on "He created them in the image of God, male and
        female created he them."


        Jed Chandler


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Grondin
        ... The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary represents Sophia. The word sophia isn t used at all in the text (much less equate Mary to it).
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 9, 2006
          [Jed Chandler]:
          > Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114
          > that Jesus as Logos will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate
          > (female) and spread (male) the truth.

          The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary
          represents Sophia. The word 'sophia' isn't used at all
          in the text (much less equate Mary to it). Secondarily, the
          one place that 'logos' is used (79.2 - "Blessed are they
          who have listened to the LOGOS of the Father...") doesn't
          imply that Jesus is the Logos. The basic idea of listening
          (gestating?) as passive and female, and preaching as
          active and male seems sound, but this would apply to
          both physical males and females. Beyond that, getting
          full-blown Gnostic ideas out of GTh is like trying to get
          water out of a stone. More likely, 114 may have been
          viewed as a reversal of Genesis - with the new Adam
          leading the new Eve to spirituality, as the old Eve led
          the old Adam into sin and the physical world.

          > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian
          > concept of a kind of hierarchy of maleness, too?

          I don't see any evidence of that in the text.

          Mike Grondin
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.