Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [GTh] GTh 114

Expand Messages
  • CJED5@aol.com
    In a message dated 08/08/2006 19:49:47 GMT Daylight Time, mwgrondin@comcast.net writes: From: Simon Gathercole
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 8 1:54 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      In a message dated 08/08/2006 19:49:47 GMT Daylight Time,
      mwgrondin@... writes:

      From: "Simon Gathercole" <_s.j.gathercole@..._
      (mailto:s.j.gathercole@...) >

      >> Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
      >> Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
      >> revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
      >> incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
      >> Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
      >> Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

      >It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any
      >other means) was about the last thing that the writer of 114 might have had
      >in mind. The whole tenor of GTh is anti-physical.
      ...
      and Mike Grondin that:
      <the writer of 114 thought that a little extra push (and sanction from
      Jesus) was needed to bring women up to the level of males to begin with. That's
      roughly how I see it, anyway.>>

      Mike Grondin
      Mt. Clemens, MI


      An interesting contrast here. In Thomas 114there is an apparent disjuntion
      between sex (as in physiological configuration) and gender (in its modern,
      non-grammatical meaning of socially-conditioned characteristics attributed to
      one sex or another). Peter Autier's teaching on maleness in the last
      incarnation seems to imply congruence between physical appearance and gender
      idenitity (or spiritual gender): maybe for him, real men must be male

      Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114 that Jesus as Logos
      will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate (female) and spread (male) the truth.

      I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
      hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
      angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
      maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
      of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
      about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)


      Jed Chandler
      I_._,_.___




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sarban
      ... From: CJED5@aol.com To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114 ... See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 8 11:12 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        ----- Original Message -----

        From: CJED5@...

        To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM

        Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114



        > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
        > hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
        > angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
        > maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
        > of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
        > about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)

        > Jed Chandler



        See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts from Theodotus



        21 The Valentinians say that the finest emanation of Wisdom is spoken of in "He created them in the image of God, male and female created he them." Now the males from this emanation are the "election," but the females are the "calling" and they call the male beings angelic, and the females themselves, the superior seed. So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female seed was taken from him and became Eve, from whom the females are derived, as the males are from him. Therefore the males are drawn together with the Logos, but the females, becoming men, are united to the angels and pass into the Pleroma. Therefore the woman is said to be changed into a man, and the church here on earth into angels



        Andrew Criddle








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • CJED5@aol.com
        In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@supanet.com ... seed was taken from him and became Eve Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 9 2:14 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@...
          writes:




          >>So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female
          seed was taken from him >>and became Eve


          Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic ascent of the soul, through the genders
          with the eventual loss of the feminine. It seems to indicate a primordial
          hermaphrodite or unsexed human creation before the female split from Adam - and
          yet it is a commentary on "He created them in the image of God, male and
          female created he them."


          Jed Chandler


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Grondin
          ... The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary represents Sophia. The word sophia isn t used at all in the text (much less equate Mary to it).
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 9 8:47 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            [Jed Chandler]:
            > Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114
            > that Jesus as Logos will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate
            > (female) and spread (male) the truth.

            The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary
            represents Sophia. The word 'sophia' isn't used at all
            in the text (much less equate Mary to it). Secondarily, the
            one place that 'logos' is used (79.2 - "Blessed are they
            who have listened to the LOGOS of the Father...") doesn't
            imply that Jesus is the Logos. The basic idea of listening
            (gestating?) as passive and female, and preaching as
            active and male seems sound, but this would apply to
            both physical males and females. Beyond that, getting
            full-blown Gnostic ideas out of GTh is like trying to get
            water out of a stone. More likely, 114 may have been
            viewed as a reversal of Genesis - with the new Adam
            leading the new Eve to spirituality, as the old Eve led
            the old Adam into sin and the physical world.

            > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian
            > concept of a kind of hierarchy of maleness, too?

            I don't see any evidence of that in the text.

            Mike Grondin
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.