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Re: [GTh] Back from brief exile, with a question

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  • BitsyCat1@aol.com
    ... Then your suggesting that this was a common belief in the 1st century (An older religious idea) which stems from an Egyptian original, where this was often
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
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      In a message dated 8/7/06 6:19:06 PM, CJED5@... writes:


      > (making Mary male) in one  instance, and the
      > trancendence or anulment of gender in another. 
      >

      Then your suggesting that this was a common belief in the 1st century (An
      older religious idea) which stems from an Egyptian original, where this was
      often taken quite literally.

      That there is a real as well as spiritual belief in the female to male,
      which is commonly attributed to the Gnostics? As well perhaps was adopted by the
      Coptic Writer/Framer?

      Regards,
      John Moon
      Springfield,Tenn 37172


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    • Michael Grondin
      ... Yes, quite so. The writer s name is J. Samuel Chandler. Notes without sig-lines normally aren t approved, but this one slipped through. Also, the reference
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
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        [Judy R. wrote]:
        > I think Mike might have been interested in a name.

        Yes, quite so. The writer's name is J. Samuel Chandler.
        Notes without sig-lines normally aren't approved, but
        this one slipped through.

        Also, the reference is evidently to the paper:
        The Problem of a Female´s Rebirth in Ancient Egypt: Why Masculinity is
        Essential for New Life in the Netherworld (Zusammenfassung)
        Kathlyn Cooney PhD (Humanities/Ägyptologie, Stanford/USA)

        ... delivered Jan 20th, 2006. Which is about all I can make out of the
        German verbiage at the website Sam mentioned.

        Mike
      • BitsyCat1@aol.com
        ... Here s the link to the English Article of the same http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/abstract_Cooney.php Dr. Kathlyn (Kara) Cooney, Stanford/USA
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
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          In a message dated 8/7/06 9:58:31 PM, mwgrondin@... writes:


          > Kathlyn Cooney PhD
          >

          Here's the link to the English Article of the same

          http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/abstract_Cooney.php

          Dr. Kathlyn (Kara) Cooney, Stanford/USA

          The Problem of a Female Rebirth in Ancient Egypt:
          Why Masculinity is Essential for New Life in the Netherworld
          Abstract:

          Interesting reading

          Regards,
          John MOON
          Springfield <Tenn
          johnmoon3717@...


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        • Simon Gathercole
          Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval Europe: Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar revival in the
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
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            Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
            Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
            revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
            incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
            Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
            Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

            I'd be interested in seeing a copy of this paper on Egyptian female-to-male
            transformation, too.

            Simon



            ------------
            Dr Simon Gathercole
            Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            University of Aberdeen

            01224 272374
          • Judy Redman
            ... This is very interesting, but not what I was getting at. While I can see that the idea expressed in GTh 114 might well be a reflection of the Egyptian
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
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              Simon writes:

              > Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive
              > into medieval
              > Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of
              > the Cathar revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to
              > be a male in one's last incarnation if one was to join the
              > good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
              > Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval
              > Cathars (London:
              > Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

              This is very interesting, but not what I was getting at. While I can see
              that the idea expressed in GTh 114 might well be a reflection of the
              Egyptian religious thought of the time (and may well have been an accretion
              added to the original text during its sojourn in Egypt), I don't see the
              likelihood of any *direct* link between the medieval hagiographers and GTh,
              because the text of GTh was not known at the time.

              Judy
              >
              > I'd be interested in seeing a copy of this paper on Egyptian
              > female-to-male transformation, too.
              >
              > Simon
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------
              > Dr Simon Gathercole
              > Senior Lecturer in New Testament
              > University of Aberdeen
              >
              > 01224 272374
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------
              > ----------
              > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > Interlinear translation:
              > http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • CJED5@aol.com
              In a message dated 08/08/2006 00:35:05 GMT Daylight Time, ... Well, my father was an experimental engineer, and .... :-) But how dense of me: Jed Chandler,
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
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                In a message dated 08/08/2006 00:35:05 GMT Daylight Time,
                jredman@... writes:

                > I think Mike might have been interested in a name.
                > CJED5 sounds a bit like a second generation Star Wars robot. :-)

                Well, my father was an experimental engineer, and .... :-)
                But how dense of me: Jed Chandler, and hello to all of you

                > Sounds like interesting research, but I'm not sure
                > that I see the link you're making between GTh and
                > medieval Eurpean hagiography seeing GTh was totally
                > unknown to medieval hagiographers (except perhaps
                > through the works of the Church Fathers who condemned
                > it as heresy).

                I find it personally rather annoying that it took people milennia to
                rediscover these text, as the thesis I'm having to work so darn hard with would have been a lot easier if the hagiographers just had them to hand from the date of composition onwards! But yes, as you suggest, I'm using the references and condemnations of the patristic writers to show the currency of the concept.
                Thus Amma Sara's: 'I am a woman in sex but not in spirit.', or Jerome's warning to the teenager Eustochium against pious women who dress as men.





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              • Michael Grondin
                From: Simon Gathercole ... It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any other means) was about the
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
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                  From: "Simon Gathercole" <s.j.gathercole@...>

                  > Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
                  > Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
                  > revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
                  > incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                  > Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
                  > Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                  It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any
                  other means) was about the last thing that the writer of 114 might have had
                  in mind. The whole tenor of GTh is anti-physical. I read 114 as a response
                  to the well-nigh universal view among men of the time that women weren't as
                  good as men. In terms of right and left (right always being the better of
                  the pair), women were "of the left". 114 suggests that the GThom disciples
                  saw themselves as having been transformed into wholly spirit-driven beings,
                  presumably by casting off their aggressiveness, sexuality, will to power,
                  etc. But what about women who wanted to join the movement? By casting Peter
                  (not a hero to the GThomists) in the antagonist's role, Mary as the case in
                  point, and Jesus responding as he does, the writer sanctioned the inclusion
                  of women in the group, provided they would become NOT like "normal men", but
                  like the self-styled (male) disciples, as far as anti-sexuality and the
                  avoidance of what were felt to be typical and undesirable female attributes
                  and interests (e.g., as in Mary vs. Martha in that little canonical scene).
                  As 22 suggests, each gender had to cast aside its own gender-specific
                  physically-centered psychological attributes, but the writer of 114 thought
                  that a little extra push (and sanction from Jesus) was needed to bring women
                  up to the level of males to begin with. That's roughly how I see it, anyway.

                  Mike Grondin
                  Mt. Clemens, MI
                • CJED5@aol.com
                  In a message dated 08/08/2006 19:49:47 GMT Daylight Time, mwgrondin@comcast.net writes: From: Simon Gathercole
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
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                    In a message dated 08/08/2006 19:49:47 GMT Daylight Time,
                    mwgrondin@... writes:

                    From: "Simon Gathercole" <_s.j.gathercole@..._
                    (mailto:s.j.gathercole@...) >

                    >> Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
                    >> Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
                    >> revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
                    >> incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                    >> Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
                    >> Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                    >It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any
                    >other means) was about the last thing that the writer of 114 might have had
                    >in mind. The whole tenor of GTh is anti-physical.
                    ...
                    and Mike Grondin that:
                    <the writer of 114 thought that a little extra push (and sanction from
                    Jesus) was needed to bring women up to the level of males to begin with. That's
                    roughly how I see it, anyway.>>

                    Mike Grondin
                    Mt. Clemens, MI


                    An interesting contrast here. In Thomas 114there is an apparent disjuntion
                    between sex (as in physiological configuration) and gender (in its modern,
                    non-grammatical meaning of socially-conditioned characteristics attributed to
                    one sex or another). Peter Autier's teaching on maleness in the last
                    incarnation seems to imply congruence between physical appearance and gender
                    idenitity (or spiritual gender): maybe for him, real men must be male

                    Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114 that Jesus as Logos
                    will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate (female) and spread (male) the truth.

                    I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
                    hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
                    angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
                    maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
                    of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
                    about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)


                    Jed Chandler
                    I_._,_.___




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                  • sarban
                    ... From: CJED5@aol.com To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114 ... See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
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                      ----- Original Message -----

                      From: CJED5@...

                      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com

                      Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM

                      Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114



                      > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
                      > hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
                      > angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
                      > maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
                      > of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
                      > about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)

                      > Jed Chandler



                      See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts from Theodotus



                      21 The Valentinians say that the finest emanation of Wisdom is spoken of in "He created them in the image of God, male and female created he them." Now the males from this emanation are the "election," but the females are the "calling" and they call the male beings angelic, and the females themselves, the superior seed. So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female seed was taken from him and became Eve, from whom the females are derived, as the males are from him. Therefore the males are drawn together with the Logos, but the females, becoming men, are united to the angels and pass into the Pleroma. Therefore the woman is said to be changed into a man, and the church here on earth into angels



                      Andrew Criddle








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                    • CJED5@aol.com
                      In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@supanet.com ... seed was taken from him and became Eve Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 9, 2006
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                        In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@...
                        writes:




                        >>So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female
                        seed was taken from him >>and became Eve


                        Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic ascent of the soul, through the genders
                        with the eventual loss of the feminine. It seems to indicate a primordial
                        hermaphrodite or unsexed human creation before the female split from Adam - and
                        yet it is a commentary on "He created them in the image of God, male and
                        female created he them."


                        Jed Chandler


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                      • Michael Grondin
                        ... The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary represents Sophia. The word sophia isn t used at all in the text (much less equate Mary to it).
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 9, 2006
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                          [Jed Chandler]:
                          > Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114
                          > that Jesus as Logos will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate
                          > (female) and spread (male) the truth.

                          The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary
                          represents Sophia. The word 'sophia' isn't used at all
                          in the text (much less equate Mary to it). Secondarily, the
                          one place that 'logos' is used (79.2 - "Blessed are they
                          who have listened to the LOGOS of the Father...") doesn't
                          imply that Jesus is the Logos. The basic idea of listening
                          (gestating?) as passive and female, and preaching as
                          active and male seems sound, but this would apply to
                          both physical males and females. Beyond that, getting
                          full-blown Gnostic ideas out of GTh is like trying to get
                          water out of a stone. More likely, 114 may have been
                          viewed as a reversal of Genesis - with the new Adam
                          leading the new Eve to spirituality, as the old Eve led
                          the old Adam into sin and the physical world.

                          > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian
                          > concept of a kind of hierarchy of maleness, too?

                          I don't see any evidence of that in the text.

                          Mike Grondin
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