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Re: [GTh] Back from brief exile, with a question

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  • CJED5@aol.com
    In a message dated 07/08/2006 16:29:10 GMT Daylight Time, mwgrondin@co mcast.net writes: Plainly, unless the Egyptian female did not become an Osiris , ...
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 7 3:39 PM
      In a message dated 07/08/2006 16:29:10 GMT Daylight Time, mwgrondin@co
      mcast.net writes:

      Plainly, unless the Egyptian female did not become an 'Osiris',
      > s/he could not not enter eternal life...

      The way this is worded (triple negative!), its meaning is far from plain.
      Whatever it means, can you give a source citation? And who are you anyway?



      Oops, and I blush with shame. Wrote that very late at night! Please amend
      to read: 'an Egyptian woman had to be identified with Osiris and assume a
      male role to ensure her transition from death on earth to the afterlife'.

      References: I'm trying to trace the reference now. A presenter at a
      conference I attended (Sex and Gender in Egypt, organised by the Egyptology
      department of Swansea University) stated this, but I didn't have the opportunity to
      ask her for further information. However, I believe this abstract indicates
      that the paper here is covering similar territory. Again, I'm trying to get
      hold of the paper.
      _http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/Symposion%202006.php_ (http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/Symposion%202006.php)

      The speaker at Swansea said that transition to the afterlife was dependent
      on orgasm - and specifically male orgasm, and that phallus-like artefacts were
      placed in the appropriate place in the sarcophagi of some female bodies.
      (Well, that's one way of making someone male, I guess.) I can't track the
      speaker down at the moment - she may be on sabbatical.

      As to who I am - nobody of any note or significance, I fear. I'm doing a
      PhD on transvestism, gender transition and transcendence of gender in medieval
      European hagiography at Swansea University, which is where I also work.
      Naturally, the Gospel of Thomas is of great interest, as it seems to refer to
      spiritual gender transition (making Mary male) in one instance, and the
      trancendence or anulment of gender in another.











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    • Judy Redman
      ... I think Mike might have been interested in a name. CJED5 sounds a bit like a second generation Star Wars robot. :-) Sounds like interesting research, but
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 7 4:29 PM
        > As to who I am - nobody of any note or significance, I fear.
        > I'm doing a PhD on transvestism, gender transition and
        > transcendence of gender in medieval European hagiography at
        > Swansea University, which is where I also work.
        > Naturally, the Gospel of Thomas is of great interest, as it
        > seems to refer to spiritual gender transition (making Mary
        > male) in one instance, and the trancendence or anulment of
        > gender in another.

        I think Mike might have been interested in a name. CJED5 sounds a bit like
        a second generation Star Wars robot. :-)

        Sounds like interesting research, but I'm not sure that I see the link
        you're making between GTh and medieval Eurpean hagiography seeing GTh was
        totally unknown to medieval hagiographers (except perhaps through the works
        of the Church Fathers who condemned it as heresy).

        Judy

        --
        "One can easily understand a child who is afraid of the dark. The real
        tragedy of life is when grown men and women are afraid of the light." -
        Plato

        Rev Judy Redman
        Uniting Church Chaplain
        University of New England
        Armidale 2351
        ph: +61 2 6773 3739
        fax: +61 2 6773 3749
        web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
        email: jredman@...
      • BitsyCat1@aol.com
        ... Then your suggesting that this was a common belief in the 1st century (An older religious idea) which stems from an Egyptian original, where this was often
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 7 4:34 PM
          In a message dated 8/7/06 6:19:06 PM, CJED5@... writes:


          > (making Mary male) in one  instance, and the
          > trancendence or anulment of gender in another. 
          >

          Then your suggesting that this was a common belief in the 1st century (An
          older religious idea) which stems from an Egyptian original, where this was
          often taken quite literally.

          That there is a real as well as spiritual belief in the female to male,
          which is commonly attributed to the Gnostics? As well perhaps was adopted by the
          Coptic Writer/Framer?

          Regards,
          John Moon
          Springfield,Tenn 37172


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        • Michael Grondin
          ... Yes, quite so. The writer s name is J. Samuel Chandler. Notes without sig-lines normally aren t approved, but this one slipped through. Also, the reference
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 7 7:51 PM
            [Judy R. wrote]:
            > I think Mike might have been interested in a name.

            Yes, quite so. The writer's name is J. Samuel Chandler.
            Notes without sig-lines normally aren't approved, but
            this one slipped through.

            Also, the reference is evidently to the paper:
            The Problem of a Female´s Rebirth in Ancient Egypt: Why Masculinity is
            Essential for New Life in the Netherworld (Zusammenfassung)
            Kathlyn Cooney PhD (Humanities/Ägyptologie, Stanford/USA)

            ... delivered Jan 20th, 2006. Which is about all I can make out of the
            German verbiage at the website Sam mentioned.

            Mike
          • BitsyCat1@aol.com
            ... Here s the link to the English Article of the same http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/abstract_Cooney.php Dr. Kathlyn (Kara) Cooney, Stanford/USA
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 7 9:11 PM
              In a message dated 8/7/06 9:58:31 PM, mwgrondin@... writes:


              > Kathlyn Cooney PhD
              >

              Here's the link to the English Article of the same

              http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/abstract_Cooney.php

              Dr. Kathlyn (Kara) Cooney, Stanford/USA

              The Problem of a Female Rebirth in Ancient Egypt:
              Why Masculinity is Essential for New Life in the Netherworld
              Abstract:

              Interesting reading

              Regards,
              John MOON
              Springfield <Tenn
              johnmoon3717@...


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            • Simon Gathercole
              Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval Europe: Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar revival in the
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 8 1:11 AM
                Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
                Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
                revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
                incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
                Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                I'd be interested in seeing a copy of this paper on Egyptian female-to-male
                transformation, too.

                Simon



                ------------
                Dr Simon Gathercole
                Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                University of Aberdeen

                01224 272374
              • Judy Redman
                ... This is very interesting, but not what I was getting at. While I can see that the idea expressed in GTh 114 might well be a reflection of the Egyptian
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 8 2:49 AM
                  Simon writes:

                  > Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive
                  > into medieval
                  > Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of
                  > the Cathar revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to
                  > be a male in one's last incarnation if one was to join the
                  > good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                  > Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval
                  > Cathars (London:
                  > Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                  This is very interesting, but not what I was getting at. While I can see
                  that the idea expressed in GTh 114 might well be a reflection of the
                  Egyptian religious thought of the time (and may well have been an accretion
                  added to the original text during its sojourn in Egypt), I don't see the
                  likelihood of any *direct* link between the medieval hagiographers and GTh,
                  because the text of GTh was not known at the time.

                  Judy
                  >
                  > I'd be interested in seeing a copy of this paper on Egyptian
                  > female-to-male transformation, too.
                  >
                  > Simon
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------
                  > Dr Simon Gathercole
                  > Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                  > University of Aberdeen
                  >
                  > 01224 272374
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------
                  > ----------
                  > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                  > Interlinear translation:
                  > http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • CJED5@aol.com
                  In a message dated 08/08/2006 00:35:05 GMT Daylight Time, ... Well, my father was an experimental engineer, and .... :-) But how dense of me: Jed Chandler,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 8 4:30 AM
                    In a message dated 08/08/2006 00:35:05 GMT Daylight Time,
                    jredman@... writes:

                    > I think Mike might have been interested in a name.
                    > CJED5 sounds a bit like a second generation Star Wars robot. :-)

                    Well, my father was an experimental engineer, and .... :-)
                    But how dense of me: Jed Chandler, and hello to all of you

                    > Sounds like interesting research, but I'm not sure
                    > that I see the link you're making between GTh and
                    > medieval Eurpean hagiography seeing GTh was totally
                    > unknown to medieval hagiographers (except perhaps
                    > through the works of the Church Fathers who condemned
                    > it as heresy).

                    I find it personally rather annoying that it took people milennia to
                    rediscover these text, as the thesis I'm having to work so darn hard with would have been a lot easier if the hagiographers just had them to hand from the date of composition onwards! But yes, as you suggest, I'm using the references and condemnations of the patristic writers to show the currency of the concept.
                    Thus Amma Sara's: 'I am a woman in sex but not in spirit.', or Jerome's warning to the teenager Eustochium against pious women who dress as men.





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                  • Michael Grondin
                    From: Simon Gathercole ... It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any other means) was about the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 8 11:46 AM
                      From: "Simon Gathercole" <s.j.gathercole@...>

                      > Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
                      > Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
                      > revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
                      > incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                      > Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
                      > Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                      It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any
                      other means) was about the last thing that the writer of 114 might have had
                      in mind. The whole tenor of GTh is anti-physical. I read 114 as a response
                      to the well-nigh universal view among men of the time that women weren't as
                      good as men. In terms of right and left (right always being the better of
                      the pair), women were "of the left". 114 suggests that the GThom disciples
                      saw themselves as having been transformed into wholly spirit-driven beings,
                      presumably by casting off their aggressiveness, sexuality, will to power,
                      etc. But what about women who wanted to join the movement? By casting Peter
                      (not a hero to the GThomists) in the antagonist's role, Mary as the case in
                      point, and Jesus responding as he does, the writer sanctioned the inclusion
                      of women in the group, provided they would become NOT like "normal men", but
                      like the self-styled (male) disciples, as far as anti-sexuality and the
                      avoidance of what were felt to be typical and undesirable female attributes
                      and interests (e.g., as in Mary vs. Martha in that little canonical scene).
                      As 22 suggests, each gender had to cast aside its own gender-specific
                      physically-centered psychological attributes, but the writer of 114 thought
                      that a little extra push (and sanction from Jesus) was needed to bring women
                      up to the level of males to begin with. That's roughly how I see it, anyway.

                      Mike Grondin
                      Mt. Clemens, MI
                    • CJED5@aol.com
                      In a message dated 08/08/2006 19:49:47 GMT Daylight Time, mwgrondin@comcast.net writes: From: Simon Gathercole
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 8 1:54 PM
                        In a message dated 08/08/2006 19:49:47 GMT Daylight Time,
                        mwgrondin@... writes:

                        From: "Simon Gathercole" <_s.j.gathercole@..._
                        (mailto:s.j.gathercole@...) >

                        >> Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
                        >> Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
                        >> revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
                        >> incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                        >> Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
                        >> Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                        >It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any
                        >other means) was about the last thing that the writer of 114 might have had
                        >in mind. The whole tenor of GTh is anti-physical.
                        ...
                        and Mike Grondin that:
                        <the writer of 114 thought that a little extra push (and sanction from
                        Jesus) was needed to bring women up to the level of males to begin with. That's
                        roughly how I see it, anyway.>>

                        Mike Grondin
                        Mt. Clemens, MI


                        An interesting contrast here. In Thomas 114there is an apparent disjuntion
                        between sex (as in physiological configuration) and gender (in its modern,
                        non-grammatical meaning of socially-conditioned characteristics attributed to
                        one sex or another). Peter Autier's teaching on maleness in the last
                        incarnation seems to imply congruence between physical appearance and gender
                        idenitity (or spiritual gender): maybe for him, real men must be male

                        Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114 that Jesus as Logos
                        will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate (female) and spread (male) the truth.

                        I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
                        hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
                        angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
                        maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
                        of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
                        about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)


                        Jed Chandler
                        I_._,_.___




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                      • sarban
                        ... From: CJED5@aol.com To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114 ... See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 8 11:12 PM
                          ----- Original Message -----

                          From: CJED5@...

                          To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com

                          Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM

                          Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114



                          > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
                          > hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
                          > angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
                          > maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
                          > of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
                          > about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)

                          > Jed Chandler



                          See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts from Theodotus



                          21 The Valentinians say that the finest emanation of Wisdom is spoken of in "He created them in the image of God, male and female created he them." Now the males from this emanation are the "election," but the females are the "calling" and they call the male beings angelic, and the females themselves, the superior seed. So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female seed was taken from him and became Eve, from whom the females are derived, as the males are from him. Therefore the males are drawn together with the Logos, but the females, becoming men, are united to the angels and pass into the Pleroma. Therefore the woman is said to be changed into a man, and the church here on earth into angels



                          Andrew Criddle








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                        • CJED5@aol.com
                          In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@supanet.com ... seed was taken from him and became Eve Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 9 2:14 AM
                            In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@...
                            writes:




                            >>So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female
                            seed was taken from him >>and became Eve


                            Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic ascent of the soul, through the genders
                            with the eventual loss of the feminine. It seems to indicate a primordial
                            hermaphrodite or unsexed human creation before the female split from Adam - and
                            yet it is a commentary on "He created them in the image of God, male and
                            female created he them."


                            Jed Chandler


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                          • Michael Grondin
                            ... The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary represents Sophia. The word sophia isn t used at all in the text (much less equate Mary to it).
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 9 8:47 AM
                              [Jed Chandler]:
                              > Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114
                              > that Jesus as Logos will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate
                              > (female) and spread (male) the truth.

                              The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary
                              represents Sophia. The word 'sophia' isn't used at all
                              in the text (much less equate Mary to it). Secondarily, the
                              one place that 'logos' is used (79.2 - "Blessed are they
                              who have listened to the LOGOS of the Father...") doesn't
                              imply that Jesus is the Logos. The basic idea of listening
                              (gestating?) as passive and female, and preaching as
                              active and male seems sound, but this would apply to
                              both physical males and females. Beyond that, getting
                              full-blown Gnostic ideas out of GTh is like trying to get
                              water out of a stone. More likely, 114 may have been
                              viewed as a reversal of Genesis - with the new Adam
                              leading the new Eve to spirituality, as the old Eve led
                              the old Adam into sin and the physical world.

                              > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian
                              > concept of a kind of hierarchy of maleness, too?

                              I don't see any evidence of that in the text.

                              Mike Grondin
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