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Re: [GTh] Back from brief exile, with a question

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  • Michael Grondin
    ... The way this is worded (triple negative!), its meaning is far from plain. Whatever it means, can you give a source citation? And who are you anyway? Mike
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
      > Plainly, unless the Egyptian female did not become an 'Osiris',
      > s/he could not not enter eternal life...

      The way this is worded (triple negative!), its meaning is far from plain.
      Whatever it means, can you give a source citation? And who are you anyway?

      Mike Grondin
    • CJED5@aol.com
      In a message dated 07/08/2006 16:29:10 GMT Daylight Time, mwgrondin@co mcast.net writes: Plainly, unless the Egyptian female did not become an Osiris , ...
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
        In a message dated 07/08/2006 16:29:10 GMT Daylight Time, mwgrondin@co
        mcast.net writes:

        Plainly, unless the Egyptian female did not become an 'Osiris',
        > s/he could not not enter eternal life...

        The way this is worded (triple negative!), its meaning is far from plain.
        Whatever it means, can you give a source citation? And who are you anyway?



        Oops, and I blush with shame. Wrote that very late at night! Please amend
        to read: 'an Egyptian woman had to be identified with Osiris and assume a
        male role to ensure her transition from death on earth to the afterlife'.

        References: I'm trying to trace the reference now. A presenter at a
        conference I attended (Sex and Gender in Egypt, organised by the Egyptology
        department of Swansea University) stated this, but I didn't have the opportunity to
        ask her for further information. However, I believe this abstract indicates
        that the paper here is covering similar territory. Again, I'm trying to get
        hold of the paper.
        _http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/Symposion%202006.php_ (http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/Symposion%202006.php)

        The speaker at Swansea said that transition to the afterlife was dependent
        on orgasm - and specifically male orgasm, and that phallus-like artefacts were
        placed in the appropriate place in the sarcophagi of some female bodies.
        (Well, that's one way of making someone male, I guess.) I can't track the
        speaker down at the moment - she may be on sabbatical.

        As to who I am - nobody of any note or significance, I fear. I'm doing a
        PhD on transvestism, gender transition and transcendence of gender in medieval
        European hagiography at Swansea University, which is where I also work.
        Naturally, the Gospel of Thomas is of great interest, as it seems to refer to
        spiritual gender transition (making Mary male) in one instance, and the
        trancendence or anulment of gender in another.











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      • Judy Redman
        ... I think Mike might have been interested in a name. CJED5 sounds a bit like a second generation Star Wars robot. :-) Sounds like interesting research, but
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
          > As to who I am - nobody of any note or significance, I fear.
          > I'm doing a PhD on transvestism, gender transition and
          > transcendence of gender in medieval European hagiography at
          > Swansea University, which is where I also work.
          > Naturally, the Gospel of Thomas is of great interest, as it
          > seems to refer to spiritual gender transition (making Mary
          > male) in one instance, and the trancendence or anulment of
          > gender in another.

          I think Mike might have been interested in a name. CJED5 sounds a bit like
          a second generation Star Wars robot. :-)

          Sounds like interesting research, but I'm not sure that I see the link
          you're making between GTh and medieval Eurpean hagiography seeing GTh was
          totally unknown to medieval hagiographers (except perhaps through the works
          of the Church Fathers who condemned it as heresy).

          Judy

          --
          "One can easily understand a child who is afraid of the dark. The real
          tragedy of life is when grown men and women are afraid of the light." -
          Plato

          Rev Judy Redman
          Uniting Church Chaplain
          University of New England
          Armidale 2351
          ph: +61 2 6773 3739
          fax: +61 2 6773 3749
          web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
          email: jredman@...
        • BitsyCat1@aol.com
          ... Then your suggesting that this was a common belief in the 1st century (An older religious idea) which stems from an Egyptian original, where this was often
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
            In a message dated 8/7/06 6:19:06 PM, CJED5@... writes:


            > (making Mary male) in one  instance, and the
            > trancendence or anulment of gender in another. 
            >

            Then your suggesting that this was a common belief in the 1st century (An
            older religious idea) which stems from an Egyptian original, where this was
            often taken quite literally.

            That there is a real as well as spiritual belief in the female to male,
            which is commonly attributed to the Gnostics? As well perhaps was adopted by the
            Coptic Writer/Framer?

            Regards,
            John Moon
            Springfield,Tenn 37172


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          • Michael Grondin
            ... Yes, quite so. The writer s name is J. Samuel Chandler. Notes without sig-lines normally aren t approved, but this one slipped through. Also, the reference
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
              [Judy R. wrote]:
              > I think Mike might have been interested in a name.

              Yes, quite so. The writer's name is J. Samuel Chandler.
              Notes without sig-lines normally aren't approved, but
              this one slipped through.

              Also, the reference is evidently to the paper:
              The Problem of a Female´s Rebirth in Ancient Egypt: Why Masculinity is
              Essential for New Life in the Netherworld (Zusammenfassung)
              Kathlyn Cooney PhD (Humanities/Ägyptologie, Stanford/USA)

              ... delivered Jan 20th, 2006. Which is about all I can make out of the
              German verbiage at the website Sam mentioned.

              Mike
            • BitsyCat1@aol.com
              ... Here s the link to the English Article of the same http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/abstract_Cooney.php Dr. Kathlyn (Kara) Cooney, Stanford/USA
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 7, 2006
                In a message dated 8/7/06 9:58:31 PM, mwgrondin@... writes:


                > Kathlyn Cooney PhD
                >

                Here's the link to the English Article of the same

                http://www.theologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/kolleg/abstract_Cooney.php

                Dr. Kathlyn (Kara) Cooney, Stanford/USA

                The Problem of a Female Rebirth in Ancient Egypt:
                Why Masculinity is Essential for New Life in the Netherworld
                Abstract:

                Interesting reading

                Regards,
                John MOON
                Springfield <Tenn
                johnmoon3717@...


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              • Simon Gathercole
                Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval Europe: Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar revival in the
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
                  Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
                  Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
                  revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
                  incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                  Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
                  Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                  I'd be interested in seeing a copy of this paper on Egyptian female-to-male
                  transformation, too.

                  Simon



                  ------------
                  Dr Simon Gathercole
                  Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                  University of Aberdeen

                  01224 272374
                • Judy Redman
                  ... This is very interesting, but not what I was getting at. While I can see that the idea expressed in GTh 114 might well be a reflection of the Egyptian
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
                    Simon writes:

                    > Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive
                    > into medieval
                    > Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of
                    > the Cathar revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to
                    > be a male in one's last incarnation if one was to join the
                    > good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                    > Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval
                    > Cathars (London:
                    > Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                    This is very interesting, but not what I was getting at. While I can see
                    that the idea expressed in GTh 114 might well be a reflection of the
                    Egyptian religious thought of the time (and may well have been an accretion
                    added to the original text during its sojourn in Egypt), I don't see the
                    likelihood of any *direct* link between the medieval hagiographers and GTh,
                    because the text of GTh was not known at the time.

                    Judy
                    >
                    > I'd be interested in seeing a copy of this paper on Egyptian
                    > female-to-male transformation, too.
                    >
                    > Simon
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------
                    > Dr Simon Gathercole
                    > Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                    > University of Aberdeen
                    >
                    > 01224 272374
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------
                    > ----------
                    > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                    > Interlinear translation:
                    > http://www.geocities.com/mwgrondin/x_transl.htm
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


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                  • CJED5@aol.com
                    In a message dated 08/08/2006 00:35:05 GMT Daylight Time, ... Well, my father was an experimental engineer, and .... :-) But how dense of me: Jed Chandler,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
                      In a message dated 08/08/2006 00:35:05 GMT Daylight Time,
                      jredman@... writes:

                      > I think Mike might have been interested in a name.
                      > CJED5 sounds a bit like a second generation Star Wars robot. :-)

                      Well, my father was an experimental engineer, and .... :-)
                      But how dense of me: Jed Chandler, and hello to all of you

                      > Sounds like interesting research, but I'm not sure
                      > that I see the link you're making between GTh and
                      > medieval Eurpean hagiography seeing GTh was totally
                      > unknown to medieval hagiographers (except perhaps
                      > through the works of the Church Fathers who condemned
                      > it as heresy).

                      I find it personally rather annoying that it took people milennia to
                      rediscover these text, as the thesis I'm having to work so darn hard with would have been a lot easier if the hagiographers just had them to hand from the date of composition onwards! But yes, as you suggest, I'm using the references and condemnations of the patristic writers to show the currency of the concept.
                      Thus Amma Sara's: 'I am a woman in sex but not in spirit.', or Jerome's warning to the teenager Eustochium against pious women who dress as men.





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                    • Michael Grondin
                      From: Simon Gathercole ... It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any other means) was about the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
                        From: "Simon Gathercole" <s.j.gathercole@...>

                        > Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
                        > Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
                        > revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
                        > incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                        > Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
                        > Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                        It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any
                        other means) was about the last thing that the writer of 114 might have had
                        in mind. The whole tenor of GTh is anti-physical. I read 114 as a response
                        to the well-nigh universal view among men of the time that women weren't as
                        good as men. In terms of right and left (right always being the better of
                        the pair), women were "of the left". 114 suggests that the GThom disciples
                        saw themselves as having been transformed into wholly spirit-driven beings,
                        presumably by casting off their aggressiveness, sexuality, will to power,
                        etc. But what about women who wanted to join the movement? By casting Peter
                        (not a hero to the GThomists) in the antagonist's role, Mary as the case in
                        point, and Jesus responding as he does, the writer sanctioned the inclusion
                        of women in the group, provided they would become NOT like "normal men", but
                        like the self-styled (male) disciples, as far as anti-sexuality and the
                        avoidance of what were felt to be typical and undesirable female attributes
                        and interests (e.g., as in Mary vs. Martha in that little canonical scene).
                        As 22 suggests, each gender had to cast aside its own gender-specific
                        physically-centered psychological attributes, but the writer of 114 thought
                        that a little extra push (and sanction from Jesus) was needed to bring women
                        up to the level of males to begin with. That's roughly how I see it, anyway.

                        Mike Grondin
                        Mt. Clemens, MI
                      • CJED5@aol.com
                        In a message dated 08/08/2006 19:49:47 GMT Daylight Time, mwgrondin@comcast.net writes: From: Simon Gathercole
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
                          In a message dated 08/08/2006 19:49:47 GMT Daylight Time,
                          mwgrondin@... writes:

                          From: "Simon Gathercole" <_s.j.gathercole@..._
                          (mailto:s.j.gathercole@...) >

                          >> Actually, the idea expressed in G. Thom. 114 does survive into medieval
                          >> Europe: 'Peter Autier [aka Pierre Authie--SG], the leader of the Cathar
                          >> revival in the early 1300s, taught that one had to be a male in one's last
                          >> incarnation if one was to join the good god.' S. O'Shea, The Perfect
                          >> Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars (London:
                          >> Profile Books, 2000), 279 (cf. p. 42).

                          >It seems to me that _physical_ transformation (via reincarnation or any
                          >other means) was about the last thing that the writer of 114 might have had
                          >in mind. The whole tenor of GTh is anti-physical.
                          ...
                          and Mike Grondin that:
                          <the writer of 114 thought that a little extra push (and sanction from
                          Jesus) was needed to bring women up to the level of males to begin with. That's
                          roughly how I see it, anyway.>>

                          Mike Grondin
                          Mt. Clemens, MI


                          An interesting contrast here. In Thomas 114there is an apparent disjuntion
                          between sex (as in physiological configuration) and gender (in its modern,
                          non-grammatical meaning of socially-conditioned characteristics attributed to
                          one sex or another). Peter Autier's teaching on maleness in the last
                          incarnation seems to imply congruence between physical appearance and gender
                          idenitity (or spiritual gender): maybe for him, real men must be male

                          Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114 that Jesus as Logos
                          will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate (female) and spread (male) the truth.

                          I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
                          hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
                          angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
                          maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
                          of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
                          about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)


                          Jed Chandler
                          I_._,_.___




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                        • sarban
                          ... From: CJED5@aol.com To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114 ... See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 8, 2006
                            ----- Original Message -----

                            From: CJED5@...

                            To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com

                            Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:54 PM

                            Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 114



                            > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian concept of a kind of
                            > hierarchy of maleness, too? Angls are maler than men and God is maler than
                            > angles, and eventually all lesser maleness gets subsumed into the greater
                            > maleness. Women and men will be transformed into 'perfect men' at the baptism
                            > of the angels, that ceremony which Tertullian poked fun at by sniggering
                            > about bearded men embracing their angels (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:15:2)

                            > Jed Chandler



                            See Clement of Alexandria Excerpts from Theodotus



                            21 The Valentinians say that the finest emanation of Wisdom is spoken of in "He created them in the image of God, male and female created he them." Now the males from this emanation are the "election," but the females are the "calling" and they call the male beings angelic, and the females themselves, the superior seed. So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female seed was taken from him and became Eve, from whom the females are derived, as the males are from him. Therefore the males are drawn together with the Logos, but the females, becoming men, are united to the angels and pass into the Pleroma. Therefore the woman is said to be changed into a man, and the church here on earth into angels



                            Andrew Criddle








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                          • CJED5@aol.com
                            In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@supanet.com ... seed was taken from him and became Eve Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 9, 2006
                              In a message dated 09/08/2006 07:13:22 GMT Daylight Time, sarban@...
                              writes:




                              >>So also, in the case of Adam, the male remained in him but all the female
                              seed was taken from him >>and became Eve


                              Thank you, Andrew. A neoplatonic ascent of the soul, through the genders
                              with the eventual loss of the feminine. It seems to indicate a primordial
                              hermaphrodite or unsexed human creation before the female split from Adam - and
                              yet it is a commentary on "He created them in the image of God, male and
                              female created he them."


                              Jed Chandler


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                            • Michael Grondin
                              ... The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary represents Sophia. The word sophia isn t used at all in the text (much less equate Mary to it).
                              Message 14 of 14 , Aug 9, 2006
                                [Jed Chandler]:
                                > Perhaps also one could argue the interpretation of 114
                                > that Jesus as Logos will lead Mary as Sophia to gestate
                                > (female) and spread (male) the truth.

                                The chief difficulty here would be to argue that Mary
                                represents Sophia. The word 'sophia' isn't used at all
                                in the text (much less equate Mary to it). Secondarily, the
                                one place that 'logos' is used (79.2 - "Blessed are they
                                who have listened to the LOGOS of the Father...") doesn't
                                imply that Jesus is the Logos. The basic idea of listening
                                (gestating?) as passive and female, and preaching as
                                active and male seems sound, but this would apply to
                                both physical males and females. Beyond that, getting
                                full-blown Gnostic ideas out of GTh is like trying to get
                                water out of a stone. More likely, 114 may have been
                                viewed as a reversal of Genesis - with the new Adam
                                leading the new Eve to spirituality, as the old Eve led
                                the old Adam into sin and the physical world.

                                > I wonder if there is also an element of the Valentinian
                                > concept of a kind of hierarchy of maleness, too?

                                I don't see any evidence of that in the text.

                                Mike Grondin
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