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Re: [GTh] Recovering Thomas

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  • sarban
    ... From: Michael Grondin To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Recovering Thomas ... Hi Mike 12 should be 76 as
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 22, 2006
      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Michael Grondin

      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 6:01 AM

      Subject: Re: [GTh] Recovering Thomas



      [Andrew Criddle wrote]:
      >> As a resource for evaluating the relation of Thomas to the Pseudo-
      >> Clementines I'm posting here the most important parallels between
      >> Thomas and the Pseudo-Clementine Literature

      >Hi Andrew,
      >Your note quotes sayings titled as 12, 16, 39, and 93, but the
      >one titled 12 is actually 76. In addition, one wonders why you
      >list only four now whereas you mentioned seven earlier in the
      >following statement:

      >> The main sayings concerned are Logions 9 16 39 40 68 76 93

      Hi Mike

      12 should be 76 as you say, my stupid mistake sorry.

      I left out 9 where there is apparently a parallel in the Recognitions with 'on the road' rather than 'along the road' as in the synoptics 40 which has a parallel in the Homilies with 'the Father' rather than 'my Father' in the synoptics and 68 where there is a parallel with the Homilies in being hated rather than having men hate you as in the synoptics.

      The four I included all have more than one point of agreement against the synoptics.



      >Aside from that, however, I'm finding it difficult to understand
      >what importance or interest there is in these parallels. Your
      >earlier statement:

      >> What I meant to say was that the only Thomas sayings
      >> paralleled in the Pseudo-Clementines are ones which occur
      >> in the putative kernel and have canonical Gospel parallels.

      >.... seems to suggest that DeConick is using the parallels as
      >supporting evidence that those Thomas sayings she identifies
      >as the kernel are really earlier than the others. Is that it? If so,
      >it seems rather weak evidence in itself, since not only is it
      >not the case that _all_ kernel sayings are paralleled in the
      >Ps-Clem's, but even that _most aren't_ (based on your list).
      >But this may not be what DeConick had in mind, so I won't
      >pursue it at this point. What I would like to know is why the
      >Ps-Clem parallels are important to DeConick.



      What DeConick thinks important is that none of the parallels with the Pseudo-Clementines (and only saying 113 among the parallels to the Diatessaron) are parallels to non-Kernel texts. She argues (rightly or wrongly) that his supports early knowledge of a version of Thomas which contained the kernel but not later sayings.


      >May I also add to my earlier request (that pp. 242-3 be made
      >publicly available) that you or anyone else who has the book
      >list (by number) those sayings and parts of sayings that she
      >now includes in the supposed kernel? (I could list those which
      >appear in her earlier article, but the list in her book may differ.)





      The full list of sayings listed on 242-3 by DeConick as paralleled in The Pseudo-Clementines is 9,16,32,39,40,54,62,64,68,76,93,95.

      The parallels to the Diatessaron are Quispel 6,8,9,16,21,25,32,33,35,36,39,40,44,45,46,47,48,55,57,63,64,66,68,74,79,86,89,90,91,94,95,96,98,100,104,109,113

      and Baarda 4,8,9,10,16,20,21,26,32,33,34,35,38,39,40,44,45,46,47,48,54,55,56,57,61,63,64,65,68,69,72,73,76,78,79,86,89,91,93,94,96,99,100,104,107,113



      The list of the kernel is 2,4(2-3),5,6(2-3),8,9,10,11(1),14(4),15,16(1-3),17,20(2-4),21(5),21(10-11),23(1),24(2-3),25,26,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,38(1),39,40,41,42,44(2-3),45,46(1-2a,c),47,48,54,55,57,58,61(1),62(1-2),63(1-4),64(1-11),65(1-8),66,68(1),69(2),71,72,73,74,76,78,79,81,82,86,89,90,91(2),92,93,94,95,96(1-3),97,98,99,100(1-3),102,103,104,107,109,111(1)



      Also 12 and 68(2) are regarded as very early additions to the kernel



      Andrew Criddle




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Grondin
      ... This list agrees in almost all particulars with her earlier paper ( The Original _Gospel of Thomas_ ), with some uncertainty due to the use of lower-case
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 24, 2006
        [Andrew Criddle from DeConick's latest book]:
        > The list of the kernel is
        > 2,4(2-3),5,6(2-3),8,9,10,11(1),14(4),15,16(1-3),17,20(2-4),21(5),21(10-11),23(1),24(2-3),25,26,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,38(1),39,40,41,42,44(2-3),45,46(1-2a,c),47,48,54,55,57,58,61(1),62(1-2),63(1-4),64(1-11),65(1-8),66,68(1),69(2),71,72,73,74,76,78,79,81,82,86,89,90,91(2),92,93,94,95,96(1-3),97,98,99,100(1-3),102,103,104,107,109,111(1)
        >
        > Also 12 and 68(2) are regarded as very early additions to the kernel

        This list agrees in almost all particulars with her earlier paper ("The
        Original _Gospel of Thomas_"), with some uncertainty due to the use of
        lower-case letters in her paper (some of which are easily translatable into
        the standard numbering, some not.) It is confusing, however, that _all_ the
        parts of 62, 63, 65, and 96 are shown in parens. Is this your doing or hers?
        Since #62, e.g., contains only two parts, why doesn't it appear as simply
        '62' instead of '62(1-2)'? But I notice this also in her paper, where 33 and
        47 are split into parts, but every part is labelled 'kernel', so one wonders
        why she bothered to split it. (?)

        Regards,
        Mike
      • Wade Greiner
        ... the Pseudo-Clementines (and only saying 113 among the parallels to the Diatessaron) are parallels to non-Kernel texts. She argues (rightly or wrongly) that
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 1, 2006
          > [Andrew Criddle wrote]:
          >
          > What DeConick thinks important is that none of the parallels with
          the Pseudo-Clementines (and only saying 113 among the parallels to the
          Diatessaron) are parallels to non-Kernel texts. She argues (rightly or
          wrongly) that his supports early knowledge of a version of Thomas
          which contained the kernel but not later sayings.
          >

          Hi Andrew,

          The argument you refer to is found on pages 242-243 of Recovering
          (hardback copy). She does think it is significant that the sayings in
          the Pseudo-Clementines show familiarity with only kernal sayings, but
          equally important to her argument is that the Pseudo-Clementines show
          knowledge of clusters of sayings in Thomas that are not found in the
          synoptics. She also thinks that if you just look at the kernal a
          natural hermeneutic is apparent and that the Pseudo-Clementines also
          show familiarity with that hermeneutic, unlike the synoptics. That
          combined with the fact that other syrian authors do show familiarity
          with the non-kernal material lead her to think that the author of the
          Pseudo-Clementines might have had knowledge of a source very much like
          her reconstructed kernal. (All from pp. 242-243.)

          By the way, the paperback should be out of this by now too. She has
          had her author copies for a couple of months now. (As a fun aside,
          the paperback edition has an illustration on the cover by April
          DeConick herself. It is a drawing of Thomas she did.)

          The companion volume to Recovering has just arrived at the publisher's
          so it should be out fairly soon too. "The Original Gospel of Thomas
          in Translation" is a saying by saying commentary that was originally
          supposed to be a part of Recovering. The page count got too large,
          however, and they asked that she separate the two into different volumes.

          She also co-edited a volume published by Brill "Thomasine Traditions
          in Antiquity" with Jon Ma. Asgeirsson and Risto Uro. Along with
          contributions from the three of them (and others) there is an article
          by Marvin Meyer on saying 42 which I point out because (if I remember
          correctly) it is a saying that there has been a fair amount of
          discussion of on this list.

          Finally, DeConick has left her position at Illinois Wesleyan
          University to take a post at Rice University in Houston. She is the
          Ilsa Carroll and Percy E. Turner Professor of Biblical Studies at Rice
          starting this fall. I know she is interested in teaching graduate
          students and may do a Gospel of Thomas seminar at Rice next year.
          (This year she is doing a graduate seminar on the Gnostic Gospels.)
          She will also be offering a class on Coptic every now and then, I
          believe. She will also be giving a couple of lay-level Gospel of
          Thomas talks at the Biblical Archeological Society's "Lost
          Christianities" program in Austin this month.

          Wade
        • Judy Redman
          ... I ve had a paperback copy for a couple of weeks now. I ordered it first in mid July from Continuum (the publishing company of which T&T Clark appears to
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 1, 2006
            Wade writes:

            > By the way, the paperback should be out of this by now too.
            > She has had her author copies for a couple of months now.

            I've had a paperback copy for a couple of weeks now. I ordered it first in
            mid July from Continuum (the publishing company of which T&T Clark appears
            to be a subsidiary) and a week or ten days later received a snail-mail
            letter telling me that it wasn't yet available and I should order again
            later, despite the fact that their website said it was. I emailed them and
            was told that it was, indeed, available, so I tried again in late July and
            it arrived mid-August.

            > The companion volume to Recovering has just arrived at the
            > publisher's so it should be out fairly soon too.

            The Continuum website says the publication date is 31 August, but I plan to
            wait a week or two before ordering, given my previous experience. They say
            the price is 85 pounds sterling.

            Judy
            --
            "One can easily understand a child who is afraid of the dark. The real
            tragedy of life is when grown men and women are afraid of the light." -
            Plato

            Rev Judy Redman
            Uniting Church Chaplain
            University of New England
            Armidale 2351
            ph: +61 2 6773 3739
            fax: +61 2 6773 3749
            web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
            email: jredman@...
          • Adaire
            ... form of ... . . . Bart D. Ehrman makes the point in his The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture and even more succinctly in his Misquoting Jesus that the
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 4, 2006
              --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@...> wrote:
              >
              > "I find the proposed history of development of Thomas broadly
              > convincing but remain convinced that the earliest ascertainable
              form of
              > Thomas, the 'Thomas Kernel' is dependent on the synoptics."
              >
              > Andrew Criddle
              >

              .
              .
              .
              Bart D. Ehrman makes the point in his "The Orthodox Corruption of
              Scripture" and even more succinctly in his "Misquoting Jesus" that
              the monasteries of Egypt were extremely careful in preserving
              manuscripts unaltered and intact. I think that "Thomas" coming from
              the Pachomian monasteries is probably far superior as to the original
              words of Jesus than the synoptics.

              The politics and war at the end of the first century and the
              beginning of the second were probably the cause of the reinvention of
              Jesus' words and teachings.

              Adaire Cain
            • Mike Buckner
              George Lamsa describes for whose sake heaven and earth came into being as an Aramaic idiom denoting respect. Michael Buckner, M. Div., Ph. D.
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 23, 2006
                George Lamsa describes "for whose sake heaven and
                earth came into being" as an Aramaic idiom denoting respect.



                Michael Buckner, M. Div., Ph. D.
                <theoriginalteachingsofjesus.com>


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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