Re: [GTh] Gospel of Judas
----- Original Message -----
From: "pmcvflag" <pmcvflag@...>
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [GTh] Gospel of Judas
>>>>You don't gotta buy it, Mike. It's free! :)
> My point is that is the Author of John got it from Jesus..or
> indirectly...then Jesus could have gotten it from Jesus too.
> In short, the letter from Jesus is not from the same hand nor in the
> same style as that of Abgar which I would expect if the whole thing
> was a scam.<<<
> If this group is truly as it says... for scholarly discussion...
> then I think we don't have to assume that John has so much to do
> with an historical Jesus in a direct way. In any event, I have to
> side with Mike here. There simply isn't any good critical reason to
> accept the Abgar letters, and much reason not to. The story itself
> seems to date from the third century. The notion that there was some
> genuine interaction between Jesus and Abgar seems so unlikely that
> it borders on the impossible. It does fit into Eusebius' agenda
> quite nicely though.
> BTW, Eusebius was not fighting the Dan Browns of his time... he WAS
> the Dan Brown of his time.
I don't agree. Eusebius appears to have had much more common sense and he
did have the resources of Pamphilus' Library in Carsarea. Eusebius was
sympathetic to Arius and, post Nicaea I, charged Alexander for
misrepresenting Arius..which took a lot of testicular fortitude, IMO.
- Hey Jack
Sorry I left your post hanging there for so long. I know the
conversation has kind of moved on, but I thought now that I can I
would still jump back there and answer your point.
>>>I don't agree. Eusebius appears to have had much more commonsense and he did have the resources of Pamphilus' Library in
Carsarea. Eusebius was sympathetic to Arius and, post Nicaea I,
charged Alexander for misrepresenting Arius..which took a lot of
testicular fortitude, IMO.<<<
Understood. However, I would point out that the evidence you give
for believing Eusebius is based essentially on personal impression
and anecdote. I concede that generally that is all we have to go on
in most cases like this. My own observations about Eusebius are
generally based on equally questionable evidence ;)
For instance, I believe that Eusebius made up the whole Constantine
conversion story for political gain. I also don't write out the
possibility that he was directly involved in the Testimonium
Of course, it would be unfair to attack Eusebius in order to
question the Abgar letters, so I don't mean to do so. Just because
he may have forged other documents doesn't mean he forged these. I
have heard the theory that it was Abgar iv who forged them (obvious
motive), but again that is speculation.
I would be more interested to hear in more detail your textual
criticism of this situation. More directly Jesus' response is
obviously dependant on John, and indirectly against Thomas. The
theology it presents is obviously late (just as "churchy" as the
supposed Abgar letter). Since I have never actually seen a serious
academic critical analysis that placed any part of these letters
(whether Abgar's or Jesus' side) to a little before Eusebius (if not
by Eusebius), I am willing to hear a case for earlier dates...
though I still can't take an argument for an actual origin in Jesus