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Re: [GTh] Gospel of Judas

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Michael Grondin To: Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Gospel of Judas ... You
    Message 1 of 47 , May 1, 2006
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Michael Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 1:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [GTh] Gospel of Judas


      > [Jack Kilmon]:
      >> The reference to Isa 6:9 as have been "written
      >> of me" also has precedence in the Yeshuine corpus.
      >
      > "Happy are you [Abgar] who believed in me without having seen me. For it
      > is
      > written of me that those who have seen me will not believe in me, and that
      > those who have not seen will believe and live."
      > (Eusebius, History of the Church, 1.13, Williamson translation)
      >
      > "And [the Lord] said, 'Go and say to this people:
      > Hear and hear, but do not understand,
      > see and see, but do not perceive.'"
      > (Isa 6.9, RSV)
      >
      > Sorry, I don't buy it, Jack. The emphasis, in fact, is on the part that
      > _isn't_ in Isa 6:9, i.e., that those who have _not_ seen Jesus will
      > believe
      > in him. That echoes much more strongly (to my mind) of Jn 20:29.

      You don't gotta buy it, Mike. It's free! :)

      My point is that is the Author of John got it from Jesus..or
      indirectly...then Jesus could have gotten it from Jesus too.

      In short, the letter from Jesus is not from the same hand nor in the same
      style as that of Abgar which I would expect if the whole thing was a scam.

      Jack Kilmon
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Jack Sorry I left your post hanging there for so long. I know the conversation has kind of moved on, but I thought now that I can I would still jump back
      Message 47 of 47 , May 28, 2006
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        Hey Jack

        Sorry I left your post hanging there for so long. I know the
        conversation has kind of moved on, but I thought now that I can I
        would still jump back there and answer your point.

        >>>I don't agree. Eusebius appears to have had much more common
        sense and he did have the resources of Pamphilus' Library in
        Carsarea. Eusebius was sympathetic to Arius and, post Nicaea I,
        charged Alexander for misrepresenting Arius..which took a lot of
        testicular fortitude, IMO.<<<

        Understood. However, I would point out that the evidence you give
        for believing Eusebius is based essentially on personal impression
        and anecdote. I concede that generally that is all we have to go on
        in most cases like this. My own observations about Eusebius are
        generally based on equally questionable evidence ;)

        For instance, I believe that Eusebius made up the whole Constantine
        conversion story for political gain. I also don't write out the
        possibility that he was directly involved in the Testimonium
        Flavianum hoax.

        Of course, it would be unfair to attack Eusebius in order to
        question the Abgar letters, so I don't mean to do so. Just because
        he may have forged other documents doesn't mean he forged these. I
        have heard the theory that it was Abgar iv who forged them (obvious
        motive), but again that is speculation.

        I would be more interested to hear in more detail your textual
        criticism of this situation. More directly Jesus' response is
        obviously dependant on John, and indirectly against Thomas. The
        theology it presents is obviously late (just as "churchy" as the
        supposed Abgar letter). Since I have never actually seen a serious
        academic critical analysis that placed any part of these letters
        (whether Abgar's or Jesus' side) to a little before Eusebius (if not
        by Eusebius), I am willing to hear a case for earlier dates...
        though I still can't take an argument for an actual origin in Jesus
        himself seriously.

        Karl Nygren
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