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Re: [GTh] Gospel of Judas

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  • sarban
    ... From: Ron McCann To: Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 10:51 PM Subject: RE: [GTh] Gospel of Judas Doesn t
    Message 1 of 47 , May 1, 2006
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ron McCann" <ronmccann1@...>
      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 10:51 PM
      Subject: RE: [GTh] Gospel of Judas


      Doesn't the word "saviour" used in the Abgar letter raise any red flags for
      anyone?

      Ron McCann
      Saskatoon, Canada.


      Abgar's letter to Jesus resemblesthe Gospels to an extent surprising if
      authentic. <QUOTE>I have heard of Thee and of Thy healing, that it is not
      bymedicines and roots Thou healest, but by Thy word Thou openest theeyes of
      the blind, Thou makest the lame to walk, cleansest thelepers, and makest the
      deaf to hear. And unclean spirits andlunatics, and those tormented, them
      Thou healest by Thy word; Thoualso raisest the dead.</QUOTE> This clearly
      resembles Matthew 11:2-6 parallelLuke 7:18-23. (Jesus' statement to the
      disciplesof John the Baptist about his mighty works) It also seems related
      to Matthew 4:24<QUOTE>And the report of him went forth into all Syria: and
      theybrought unto him all that were sick, holden with divers diseases
      andtorments, possessed with demons, and epileptic, and palsied; and hehealed
      them</QUOTE> This passage seems distinctively Matthean eg theparallels have
      no reference to 'all Syria' whichseems very relevant to the claim that Abgar
      hadheard of Jesus' mighty works. IMO the letters were composed by someone
      whoknew the written Gospels or possibly a harmonythereof like Tatian's
      Diatessaron. Andrew Criddle
    • pmcvflag
      Hey Jack Sorry I left your post hanging there for so long. I know the conversation has kind of moved on, but I thought now that I can I would still jump back
      Message 47 of 47 , May 28, 2006
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        Hey Jack

        Sorry I left your post hanging there for so long. I know the
        conversation has kind of moved on, but I thought now that I can I
        would still jump back there and answer your point.

        >>>I don't agree. Eusebius appears to have had much more common
        sense and he did have the resources of Pamphilus' Library in
        Carsarea. Eusebius was sympathetic to Arius and, post Nicaea I,
        charged Alexander for misrepresenting Arius..which took a lot of
        testicular fortitude, IMO.<<<

        Understood. However, I would point out that the evidence you give
        for believing Eusebius is based essentially on personal impression
        and anecdote. I concede that generally that is all we have to go on
        in most cases like this. My own observations about Eusebius are
        generally based on equally questionable evidence ;)

        For instance, I believe that Eusebius made up the whole Constantine
        conversion story for political gain. I also don't write out the
        possibility that he was directly involved in the Testimonium
        Flavianum hoax.

        Of course, it would be unfair to attack Eusebius in order to
        question the Abgar letters, so I don't mean to do so. Just because
        he may have forged other documents doesn't mean he forged these. I
        have heard the theory that it was Abgar iv who forged them (obvious
        motive), but again that is speculation.

        I would be more interested to hear in more detail your textual
        criticism of this situation. More directly Jesus' response is
        obviously dependant on John, and indirectly against Thomas. The
        theology it presents is obviously late (just as "churchy" as the
        supposed Abgar letter). Since I have never actually seen a serious
        academic critical analysis that placed any part of these letters
        (whether Abgar's or Jesus' side) to a little before Eusebius (if not
        by Eusebius), I am willing to hear a case for earlier dates...
        though I still can't take an argument for an actual origin in Jesus
        himself seriously.

        Karl Nygren
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