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[gthomas] Re: Three Things

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  • Didymus5@aol.com
    I neglected to cite sources for the speculations about the three things. Trinity: Bertil Gartner, Theology of the GTh, 119. Way,Truth, Life. Oscar Cullman
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 6, 1999
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      I neglected to cite sources for the speculations about the three things.
      Trinity: Bertil Gartner, Theology of the GTh, 119.
      Way,Truth, Life. Oscar Cullman
      Hippolytus, Legge trans of 1921, vol. 1,131.
      Menard, L'evangile selon Thomas 32.
      Stevan Davies, in his GTh & Christian Wisdom, suggests the words might be ones
      that could lead to stoning, such as blasphemy.
      Chris Merillat

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    • Tord Svenson
      Comments below : ... his ... Of these, which would have given reason for the disciples to stone Thomas? Also, I find it interesting that the stoning would have
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 6, 1999
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        Comments below :

        At 01:34 PM 2/6/99 EST, you wrote:
        ----snip ---------
        >1.The three persons of the Trinity'
        >2. "I am the way, the truth, and the life";
        >3."Kaulaukau, Saulasu, Zeiser" said by the heresiologist Hippolytus to have
        >been used by the gnostic sect of Naasenes as a metaphor for the original
        >masculo-feminine deity;
        >4.Words attributed to Jesus in Pistis Sophia, when the Master cries out to
        his
        >folowers, including Thomas and Mary Magdalene, three Greek vowels: Iota,
        >because the All has proceeded from it; Alpha, because the All returns to it,
        >and OMega, because the consummations of all consummations takes place in it.
        >This last comes the French scholar Menard.
        >
        --------------- Reply -------------
        Of these, which would have given reason for the disciples to stone Thomas?
        Also, I find it interesting that the stoning would have been aimed AT
        Thomas --who would just be telling what Jesus said -- and not at Jesus
        HIMSELF --who is the originator of the offense. This is what causes me to
        wonder if the three words or things were not tied into the disciples'
        relationship to Thomas -- and not so much to Jesus. If Jesus was impressed
        by Thomas' reply to his challenge to compare him to something -- he might
        have told Thomas that Thomas was nearer the Kingdom than the others --which
        they might have been jealous of and therefore likely to stone (punish or
        kill) Thomas independently of an offense against the Jewish Law.

        I know that common sense doesn't always apply to the GOT, but on the other
        hand --
        ------------------------
        "The Way is near, but men seek it afar.
        It is in easy things,
        but men seek for it in difficult things".
        ---------------------
        Tord




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      • Mike Grondin
        ... Right, and since three (=Greek G ) was commonly viewed as some kind of magical number, we should expect to find a number of different threesomes in
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 6, 1999
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          (Chris M.):
          >There has been a lot of speculation about the nature of the threesome...

          Right, and since three (=Greek 'G') was commonly viewed as some kind of
          "magical" number, we should expect to find a number of different threesomes
          in different works. There's no reason to suppose that the GThom threesome
          has any connection with other threesomes in other texts. To discover what
          threesome GThom is talking about, we need to look pretty carefully at what
          is said about it in that text.

          >Stevan Davies, in his GTh & Christian Wisdom, suggests the words might be
          >ones that could lead to stoning, such as blasphemy.

          I entirely agree with Steve; this is one of the pieces of evidence that
          must be accounted for by any candidate for the GThom threesome. Like
          detectives, we need to narrow down the many possibilities to the few most
          consistent with the textual "clues".

          One note on stoning: it's not entirely clear whether Thomas's "companions"
          are intended to represent (1) non-Christian Jews or (2) orthodox
          Christians. That would make a difference, of course, since the two groups
          would have different ideas of what counted as blasphemy/heresy. I tend
          toward (2) for reasons below:

          (Tord, in a note just now received):
          >I find it interesting that the stoning would have been aimed AT
          >Thomas --who would just be telling what Jesus said -- and not at
          >Jesus HIMSELF --who is the originator of the offense.

          The answer I find satisfactory to this little mystery is that Thomas's
          companions - if they were orthodox Christians - would not believe that it
          was Jesus himself who had said the words - they would think that Thomas had
          made them up. This is one reason I think that Thomas's companions were
          supposed to be other (orthodox) Christians, rather than non-Christian Jews
          - the latter of whom would indeed have stoned J instead of T, had J said
          something blasphemous.

          Mike
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        • Tord Svenson
          ... Mike -- the companions were the disciples Jesus gathered up locally -- Simon Peter and Matthew among them.. Would they not be Jews who were looking for
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 6, 1999
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            At 02:33 PM 2/6/99 -0500, Mike wrote:
            ----snip ---------------
            >(Tord, in a note just now received):
            >>I find it interesting that the stoning would have been aimed AT
            >>Thomas --who would just be telling what Jesus said -- and not at
            >>Jesus HIMSELF --who is the originator of the offense.
            >
            >The answer I find satisfactory to this little mystery is that Thomas's
            >companions - if they were orthodox Christians - would not believe that it
            >was Jesus himself who had said the words - they would think that Thomas had
            >made them up. This is one reason I think that Thomas's companions were
            >supposed to be other (orthodox) Christians, rather than non-Christian Jews
            >- the latter of whom would indeed have stoned J instead of T, had J said
            >something blasphemous.
            >
            >Mike
            ----------- Reply -------------
            Mike -- the companions were the disciples Jesus gathered up locally --
            Simon Peter and Matthew among them.. Would they not be Jews who were
            looking for answers that they thought they might find with Jesus? According
            to what we find in the GOT Jesus told them plenty that could have been
            interpreted as blasphemy. That's why I wonder if the three words or things
            might have been something personal about Thomas' acceptance by Jesus as the
            top dog among them. Their jealousy might have been the reason for the
            possible stoning -- not some ritual penalty for blasphemy.

            When I was a kid we used to throw rocks at one another when we got mad
            enough. I still have some lumps on my head from being on the receiving end
            of a few.:-)

            Have a good Sunday everyone and thanks for the explanations.
            Tord



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          • Mike Grondin
            ... Mea culpa, Tord. Of course Thomas s companions in #13 are the other disciples. I don t know what I was thinking to suggest otherwise. So we re definitely
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 7, 1999
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              >(Tord): The companions [in 13] were the disciples ...
              > -- Simon Peter and Matthew among them.

              Mea culpa, Tord. Of course Thomas's companions in #13 are the other
              disciples. I don't know what I was thinking to suggest otherwise. So we're
              definitely talking Christian heresy, not Jewish blasphemy.

              >Would they [the disciples] not be Jews who were
              >looking for answers that they thought they might find with Jesus? According
              >to what we find in the GOT Jesus told them plenty that could have been
              >interpreted as blasphemy. That's why I wonder if the three words or things
              >might have been something personal about Thomas' acceptance by Jesus as the
              >top dog among them. Their jealousy might have been the reason for the
              >possible stoning -- not some ritual penalty for blasphemy.

              I would resist the tendency to project #13 back onto the historical Jesus,
              Tord. We've got plenty of evidence that Thomas (if there even was such a
              person) wasn't even in the top five disciples. I'd take Thomas in GThom as
              a symbolic figure - a sort of everyman, as it were. A man of two minds, as
              the name suggests, but also a man capable of becoming a "twin" of Jesus.
              It's apparently this notion of twinship wherein GThom ran afoul of orthodox
              Xianity. It's one thing to say - as orthodox Christians did - that one
              ought to imitate the suffering of Jesus; it's quite another to say that one
              is capable of coming to be on a par with Jesus-qua-teacher.

              But attention should be paid also to the Peter and Matthew figures in #13.
              What they are made to say about Jesu may very well capture precisely what
              the Thomas Xians thought were the main alternatives to their own view:

              Peter: "[J] is like a righteous angel."
              Matthew: "[J] is like a wise philosopher."

              To my mind, we have here projections of what might have been seen by
              Thomists as a dual nature to Jesus: spirit-filled prophet, and teacher of
              wisdom. The figures of Peter and Matthew might plausibly have been chosen
              as disciples who themselves were thought to embody respectively those two
              virtues. Is the Thomist view, then, a third alternative quite separate from
              these two, or is it rather a combination of the two? I would suggest, as I
              have before, that it might be the latter.

              Suppose for the moment that the originators of GThom were gnostic
              Christians. Instead of being put off by the label "gnostic", as we are
              likely to be, try to stress the "Christian" part of it, and imagine the
              position such people would likely find themselves to be in. They would be
              the intellectuals of the Christian movement. The experience of being
              "filled with the Holy Spirit", as the new believer would have been, might
              not have led them to conclude that their wisdom was vain folly. Might it
              not be possible to combine the two, i.e., to use wisdom in the service of
              the spirit of faith? And might it not have been seen that that is precisely
              what Jesu had done? I think you see where I'm going with this. "Belief +
              wisdom" (or spirit + wisdom) should, I think, be taken seriously as a
              candidate for "making the two one". The NH figure of Pistis-Sophia
              (faith-wisdom) may be a personification of ideas also in GThom. It's
              premature to reach that conclusion yet, but I think the hypothesis is
              promising enough for one to be "on the lookout" for further confirming or
              disconfirming evidence.

              Best regards,
              Mike
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            • Jim Gambrill
              Anybody have an opinion on the three things being Yahweh s ID at the burning bush, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh -- I AM {who|what|which|that|in order that} I AM. This
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 7, 1999
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                Anybody have an opinion on the three things being Yahweh's ID at the
                burning bush, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh -- I AM {who|what|which|that|in order
                that} I AM. This would be blasphemous, but I'm not sure what would be
                the one word which upon repetition would cause stoning.

                But it would otherwise fit in quite well IMO to the rest of the logion.
                Thomas has correctly recognized Jesus, not as angel or a philosopher,
                but as the Indescribable One, God himself. Jesus affirms this to Thomas
                (who has, in recognizing this, shown that he has entered the kingdom and
                gone past the need for a teacher), by using the same identification that
                the burning bush gave to Moses.

                Could it be that the Ehyeh could be the stoning word because of its
                implied correlation in Exodus 3 to the unutterable name of God.

                Jim

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              • Sytze van der Laan
                Marco Frenschkowski wrote an article called The Enigma of the Three Words of Jesus in Gospel of Thomas Logion 13 (Journal of Higher Criticism, Vol. 1, 1994,
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 7, 1999
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                  Marco Frenschkowski wrote an article called "The Enigma of the Three
                  Words of Jesus in Gospel of Thomas Logion 13" (Journal of Higher
                  Criticism, Vol. 1, 1994, 73-84). I checked the JHC website
                  (http://drew.drew.edu/~ddoughty/jhcbody.html), but unfortunately this
                  publication isn't online yet. Frenschkowski believes "the three words
                  spoken by Jesus in the authors mind to have been 'EGW SU EIMI' ('I Am
                  Thou'): Thomas--prototype of the true gnostic-- is actually identical
                  with the revealer, though he does not yet know it. The supreme
                  revelation tells Thomas of his so far secret and innermost identity."
                  (p.77)

                  However, I don't think this is a probable or satisfying explanation
                  regarding the potential blasphemous nature of the three words.
                  Frenschkowski writes: "The intoxication of Thomas mentioned in GospThom
                  13 is an old metaphor of inspiration (Acts 2:13; Eph 5:18): the apostle
                  is on his way of being no longer a receiver of revelation but turning
                  into a vehicle of truth like Jesus himself. That this is not conciliable
                  with orthodox Christian anthropology is evident." (p.81)

                  Re: Thomas's "companions" intended to represent non-Christian Jews or
                  orthodox Christians: As far as I can tell, the group of diciples with
                  special mentioning of Simon Peter and Matthew, is still the same group
                  at the end of the story. For that reason I would also think that they
                  stand for orthodox Christians. The change of wording from "disciple" to
                  "friend" ("MAQHTHS"/"$BHR") could be a possible caesura in the story
                  that seems so closely modelled after Mt 16:13-16//Mk 8:27-29//Lk
                  9:18-20.

                  Tord drew attention at the fact "that the stoning would have been aimed
                  AT Thomas [snip] and not at Jesus HIMSELF". This is indeed a strange
                  turning point in the story. I would take "N$AJE" to mean something like
                  its Greek equivalent "LOGIA". However, the point of this story may be
                  found in the rocks that will consume those who would punish Thomas for
                  the potential blasphemous character of the 3 sayings Jesus told him.
                  These rocks will punish the accusers instead. Thus, Thomas is justified
                  in GTh 13, and perhaps identified here as Jesus' co-revealer. Hence,
                  Thomas, according to GTh 13, is the choosen one to write the three
                  sayings down and, while he was at it, he remembered some more ;-)

                  The problem I have is finding blasphemous sayings in the GThomas. I
                  mean, a lot would make one feel uneasy, but they don't strike me as
                  blasphemous. But I might be overlooking some. A saying that now comes to
                  mind is GTh 44 where Jesus says, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father
                  will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the Son will be
                  forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be
                  forgiven either on earth or in heaven." That's a pretty three-some.

                  - Sytze

                  Gospel of Thomas Bibliography @ http://huizen.dds.nl/~skirl/
                  ECTHN EN MECW TOY KOCMOY

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                • Tord Svenson
                  ... What you say gets back to a question I asked --- just how much of the GOT was designed (redacted) to meet the needs of the Gnostic Christians. If the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 8, 1999
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                    At 05:36 PM 2/7/99 -0500, Mike wrote:
                    -----snip -----------
                    >I would resist the tendency to project #13 back onto the historical Jesus,
                    >Tord. We've got plenty of evidence that Thomas (if there even was such a
                    >person) wasn't even in the top five disciples. I'd take Thomas in GThom as
                    >a symbolic figure - a sort of everyman, as it were. A man of two minds, as
                    >the name suggests, but also a man capable of becoming a "twin" of Jesus.
                    >It's apparently this notion of twinship wherein GThom ran afoul of orthodox
                    >Xianity. It's one thing to say - as orthodox Christians did - that one
                    >ought to imitate the suffering of Jesus; it's quite another to say that one
                    >is capable of coming to be on a par with Jesus-qua-teacher.

                    ----------- Reply --------------
                    What you say gets back to a question I asked --- just how much of the GOT
                    was designed (redacted) to meet the needs of the Gnostic Christians. If
                    the Thomas of the GOT is as much of a fictional character as the Jesus of
                    the NT is -- then we have to face that squarely and not worry about it in
                    looking for the meanings of these sayings. Telling people what they want to
                    hear is a fact of human nature. The author of the GOT might be Thomas or
                    not -- but it would seem natural, whatever the case, that the "pitch" would
                    be to make this Thomas appealing to the Gnostic Christians. In 13 I think
                    we see Thomas presented as Jesus' elect when he takes him aside and tells
                    him three things.
                    ---------------
                    62) Jesus said, "It is to those [who are worthy of My] mysteries that I
                    tell My mysteries."
                    ------------------
                    Tord


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                  • Tord Svenson
                    At 06:27 PM 2/7/99 -0500, Sytze wrote: Thus, Thomas is justified ... The word blasphemous is not used in 13. The GOT and the NT --plus other NHL documents --
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 8, 1999
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                      At 06:27 PM 2/7/99 -0500, Sytze wrote:
                      Thus, Thomas is justified
                      -------- snip --------------
                      >in GTh 13, and perhaps identified here as Jesus' co-revealer. Hence,
                      >Thomas, according to GTh 13, is the choosen one to write the three
                      >sayings down and, while he was at it, he remembered some more ;-)
                      >
                      >The problem I have is finding blasphemous sayings in the GThomas. I
                      >mean, a lot would make one feel uneasy, but they don't strike me as
                      >blasphemous.
                      --------- snip ---------------
                      The word blasphemous is not used in 13. The GOT and the NT --plus other
                      NHL documents -- make the disciples out to be full of character faults.
                      Among those faults is jealousy. If Jesus chose Thomas as either closer to
                      his Kingdom than the other disciples --or as actually a co-revealer -- then
                      the other disciples having a jealous attitude to Thomas would have been
                      natural. The "stoning" then might be a metaphor for jealousy and have
                      nothing to do with the more formal stoning for transgressing Judaic law.

                      With that in mind, the three things would be: "You've got it. They don't.
                      You and me,brother". ::-) Any one of those three would flip out the disciples.
                      Tord


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                    • Mike Grondin
                      ... When I first looked at GOT, about ten years ago, it was with the hope that it might contain reliable information about the historical Jesus which couldn t
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 8, 1999
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                        Tord:
                        >What you say gets back to a question I asked --- just how much of the GOT
                        >was designed (redacted) to meet the needs of the Gnostic Christians. If
                        >the Thomas of the GOT is as much of a fictional character as the Jesus of
                        >the NT is -- then we have to face that squarely and not worry about it in
                        >looking for the meanings of these sayings.

                        When I first looked at GOT, about ten years ago, it was with the hope that
                        it might contain reliable information about the historical Jesus which
                        couldn't be found in the canon. But it soon became evident to me that that
                        wasn't exactly what GOT was about. GOT wasn't just a collection of sayings
                        - there were mysteries within it, the solution to which might or might not
                        reveal more about HJ, but in any case were worth solving in their own right.

                        When I became aware of the differences between the Greek "version" of GOT,
                        and the Coptic, it occurred to me that maybe the Copts had done something
                        with GOT - something to bring it more into line with their own way of
                        thinking. Whether this redaction was major or minor, I still don't know,
                        and so I have no feel for whether the Greek GThom itself was a gnostic
                        Christian text already. I hope to one day be able to answer that question
                        by "peeling back" the Coptic emendations to reveal what the thing looked
                        like before they got their hands on it. I recognize that such a project is
                        very much out of the mainstream, since most folks assume that the Coptic
                        was just a straight translation from the Greek, but I've found enough
                        support for the thesis over the years to make me believe that, although
                        difficult to prove, it may not be impossible.

                        When looking for the meanings of these sayings, my own approach is to
                        assume that (1) if anything goes back to HJ, it's largely coincidental, and
                        hence that possibility can be safely ignored, and that (2) the meaning of
                        one saying is probably connected to others in the text, rather than to
                        outside sources. I guess I take it seriously that one can "fall upon" or
                        "stumble upon" the meanings of these sayings within the text itself.

                        Mike
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                      • Mike Grondin
                        ... To imagine that this might be what was intended, I guess we d have to be thinking in terms of the view of J s disciples PRIOR TO the resurrection .
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 8, 1999
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                          Jim:
                          >Anybody have an opinion on the three things being Yahweh's ID at the
                          >burning bush, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh -- I AM {who...} AM?

                          To imagine that this might be what was intended, I guess we'd have to be
                          thinking in terms of the view of J's disciples PRIOR TO the "resurrection".
                          Afterwards, of course, Simon and Matthew would presumably be no longer
                          inclined to stone Thomas for saying that J was God. This is certainly a
                          possibility, but the rest of GThom seems clearly to have a
                          post-resurrection tone to it, wherein it would no longer seem to make sense
                          to have the disciples doubt what was by then a given. Unless, of course,
                          the main purpose of #13 was simply to elevate Thomas above Peter and
                          Matthew (as the purpose of the corresponding scene in the canonicals was to
                          elevate Peter). Again, this is possible, but it would have the effect of
                          making GThom more canon-like; the problem with that is that the more
                          canon-like GThom is made to be, the less reasonable it is that early
                          orthodox Christian writers would have taken the unfavorable view of it that
                          they did in fact take. In addition, of course, there's #108 to consider: if
                          J tells T that he (J) is God (and not just a son of God), then does that
                          mean that Thomas has also become God by drinking J's words? Seems a mite
                          strong, even for gnostic Christians.

                          Mike
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                        • Mike Grondin
                          ... Here he says identical with the revealer [J], but above he says like Jesus . I don t think it s any more correct to say that Thomas becomes identical
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 8, 1999
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                            >Frenschkowski writes: "The intoxication of Thomas mentioned in GospThom
                            >13 is an old metaphor of inspiration (Acts 2:13; Eph 5:18): the apostle
                            >is on his way of being no longer a receiver of revelation but turning
                            >into a vehicle of truth like Jesus himself. That this is not conciliable
                            >with orthodox Christian anthropology is evident." (p.81)

                            Hmm - I like this guy, Sytze. But he makes a mistake earlier:

                            >Frenschkowski believes "the three words spoken by Jesus in the authors
                            >mind to have been 'EGW SU EIMI' ('I Am Thou'): Thomas--prototype of the
                            >true gnostic-- is actually identical with the revealer, though he does
                            >not yet know it. The supreme revelation tells Thomas of his so far
                            >secret and innermost identity." (p.77)

                            Here he says "identical with the revealer" [J], but above he says "like
                            Jesus". I don't think it's any more correct to say that Thomas becomes
                            "identical with" Jesus, than it is to say that one twin is "identical with"
                            the other. The only way it'll work is to say that by "identical", we mean
                            "very, very similar to".

                            But Frenschkowski's suggestion for the three words (which I wish he'd put
                            into Coptic) brings to mind three criteria I posited for an adequate
                            solution to this problem when Steve and I discussed it on Crosstalk last
                            April:

                            >C1: One or more of the three must be "blasphemous" in some sense. This
                            >is the most obvious criterion, but there is ambiguity here. The Coptic
                            >is not clear whether Thomas is saying "If I tell you ANY ONE of the
                            >three, you will stone me" or "One of the three is such that, if I tell
                            >you THAT ONE, you will stone me". So I leave it open whether all of the
                            >three or just one must be "blasphemous". (This is to say nothing of the
                            >question, "Blasphemous to whom? ...")
                            >
                            >C2: The "three words" must be elsewhere in the text than in #13, since
                            >Jesus takes Thomas aside to tell them to him.
                            >
                            >C3: The "three words" must be in some sense a follow-up to what Jesus
                            >has just said to Thomas, viz., "I'm not your master".

                            Today, I would rewrite C1 to tilt toward Christian heresy, rather than
                            Jewish blasphemy. As you say:

                            >Re: Thomas's "companions" intended to represent non-Christian Jews or
                            >orthodox Christians: As far as I can tell, the group of diciples with
                            >special mentioning of Simon Peter and Matthew, is still the same group
                            >at the end of the story. For that reason I would also think that they
                            >stand for orthodox Christians.

                            Agreed (sorry for suggesting otherwise earlier).

                            >The problem I have is finding blasphemous sayings in the GThomas. I
                            >mean, a lot would make one feel uneasy, but they don't strike me as
                            >blasphemous. But I might be overlooking some. A saying that now comes to
                            >mind is GTh 44 where Jesus says, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father
                            >will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the Son will be
                            >forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be
                            >forgiven either on earth or in heaven." That's a pretty three-some.

                            Yeah, but it doesn't seem to meet condition C3 above. Besides, only the
                            first two of the three appear to be heretical, which seems to fail C1.

                            But I'm gonna try now to satisfy those who weren't satisfied with my
                            earlier "I'm your disciple" suggestion. Part of my argument for that
                            candidate derived from #108 ("He will become like me, and I will become as
                            he is.") Suppose we incorporate that into the following three-part followup
                            to "I'm not your master" (J to T):

                            (1) I'm your disciple.
                            (2) You have become like me.
                            (3) I have become like you.

                            All three of these would constitute Christian heresy, IMO. And the
                            threesome would meet conditions C2 and C3 as well. And to me it has the
                            added bonus of being something "hidden", which, according to #108, is
                            revealed only to one who drinks J's words, i.e., a "Thomas".

                            Mike
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                          • Jon Peter
                            Hint, hint. You will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up. The third of three clues in #13 is given in
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 8, 1999
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                              Hint, hint.

                              "You will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the
                              stones and burn you up."

                              The third of three clues in #13 is given in this sentence. C'mon!

                              Jon


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                            • Stevan Davies
                              ... Must be such as to cause rocks to be thrown, to be exact. This does not necessarily mean blasphemy just because of some Torah stipulation to that effect.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 8, 1999
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                                Mike:
                                > But Frenschkowski's suggestion for the three words (which I wish he'd put
                                > into Coptic) brings to mind three criteria I posited for an adequate
                                > solution to this problem when Steve and I discussed it on Crosstalk last
                                > April:
                                >
                                > >C1: One or more of the three must be "blasphemous" in some sense. This
                                > >is the most obvious criterion, but there is ambiguity here. The Coptic
                                > >is not clear whether Thomas is saying "If I tell you ANY ONE of the
                                > >three, you will stone me" or "One of the three is such that, if I tell
                                > >you THAT ONE, you will stone me". So I leave it open whether all of the
                                > >three or just one must be "blasphemous". (This is to say nothing of the
                                > >question, "Blasphemous to whom? ...")

                                Must be such as to cause rocks to be thrown, to be exact. This does
                                not necessarily mean "blasphemy" just because of some Torah
                                stipulation to that effect. Maybe, for example, the words had to do
                                with a confession of adultery? We dunno do we?

                                > >C2: The "three words" must be elsewhere in the text than in #13, since
                                > >Jesus takes Thomas aside to tell them to him.

                                Aha. I think so. Or at least, if they are knowable they are in the
                                text. The practice of bringing up threes that are not in the text
                                seems just an exercise in futile imagination.

                                > >C3: The "three words" must be in some sense a follow-up to what Jesus
                                > >has just said to Thomas, viz., "I'm not your master".

                                Oh come now. That's not what he has "just said" to Thomas.

                                > Today, I would rewrite C1 to tilt toward Christian heresy, rather than
                                > Jewish blasphemy. As you say:
                                >
                                > >Re: Thomas's "companions" intended to represent non-Christian Jews or
                                > >orthodox Christians: As far as I can tell, the group of diciples with
                                > >special mentioning of Simon Peter and Matthew, is still the same group
                                > >at the end of the story. For that reason I would also think that they
                                > >stand for orthodox Christians.

                                No. They stand for a certain sort of Christians. Then you have to
                                work back from the evidence to find out what sort. The sort that
                                think J is an angel/prophet or a philosopher/wisdom-lover BOTH.
                                There's a solid clue. Maybe also the sort that think the K is going
                                to show up soon. Etc. But you have to use GTh context to fathom
                                the disciples' Christianity, not some "orthodoxy" of your own or
                                anybody elses' definition.

                                > >The problem I have is finding blasphemous sayings in the GThomas. I
                                > >mean, a lot would make one feel uneasy, but they don't strike me as
                                > >blasphemous. But I might be overlooking some.retty three-some.

                                Right in front of your face, as J said!

                                > But I'm gonna try now to satisfy those who weren't satisfied with my
                                > earlier "I'm your disciple" suggestion. Part of my argument for that
                                > candidate derived from #108 ("He will become like me, and I will become as
                                > he is.") Suppose we incorporate that into the following three-part followup
                                > to "I'm not your master" (J to T):
                                >
                                > (1) I'm your disciple.
                                > (2) You have become like me.
                                > (3) I have become like you.
                                >
                                > All three of these would constitute Christian heresy, IMO. And the
                                > threesome would meet conditions C2 and C3 as well. And to me it has the
                                > added bonus of being something "hidden", which, according to #108, is
                                > revealed only to one who drinks J's words, i.e., a "Thomas".

                                What you are doing, of course, is importing 108 wholesale into 13.
                                [And the "like" business has not been settled to my satisfaction over
                                identity.] And I am totally discomforted by the "Christian" word
                                here. Which Christians when? Probably not Paraclete-inhabited
                                Johnites, for example.

                                Let's be simple, said Ann Lee, the female Christ, and just look
                                at the saying, for it continues on after everyone thinks it has
                                stopped, with #14 wherein we have sayings (and I'm surprised, Mike,
                                that you assume "words" when "sayings" is just as good a
                                translation). As the saying 13-14 continues to its end we have
                                either three stoneworthy admonitions in 14a or three sayings in
                                14abc depending on what you want to count. 14a is, I'd bet, the
                                single Thomas "word" that EVERYBODY hates and wishes would
                                go away (everybody but me and maybe Richard). [Well, maybe 114 too.]

                                Anyhow, you have in #14a (bc) direct anti-Judaic (if not
                                anti-religious if you want to bring in "the" Christians (as if a
                                single known quantity at the time)) commandments by Jesus which,
                                if commanded to a Jewish audience in the name of God would bring
                                out the stones.

                                Doubtless this is what Jon Peter has in mind as the solution to
                                his riddle.

                                Steve

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                              • Mike Grondin
                                I m glad you brought up #14, Steve. I didn t want to mention it myself as being your view, since I wasn t sure that you still held to it. I should have known
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 8, 1999
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                                  I'm glad you brought up #14, Steve. I didn't want to mention it myself as
                                  being your view, since I wasn't sure that you still held to it. I should
                                  have known better.<g> In any case, I'm gonna confine myself here to a few
                                  remarks about #14 I may not have mentioned before.

                                  (my condition #3):
                                  >C3: The "three words" must be in some sense a follow-up to what Jesus
                                  >has just said to Thomas, viz., "I'm not your master".

                                  Steve:
                                  >Oh come now. That's not what he has "just said" to Thomas.

                                  Picky, picky, picky. And this from a guy whose favored solution is not only
                                  going to ignore THAT remark, but also the stuff which literally HAS "just
                                  been said"? Really, now, Steve!

                                  >Let's be simple, said Ann Lee, the female Christ, and just look
                                  >at the saying, for it continues on after everyone thinks it has
                                  >stopped, with #14 wherein we have sayings (and I'm surprised, Mike,
                                  >that you assume "words" when "sayings" is just as good a translation).

                                  Well now, Steve, you know I don't assume any such thing. I've never argued
                                  against any proposed solution on the grounds that it was three "sayings"
                                  instead of three "words". And who the hell is Ann Lee?

                                  >As the saying 13-14 continues to its end we have either three
                                  >stoneworthy admonitions in 14a or three sayings in 14abc depending
                                  >on what you want to count. 14a is, I'd bet, the single Thomas "word"
                                  >that EVERYBODY hates and wishes would go away ...
                                  >
                                  >Anyhow, you have in #14a (bc) direct anti-Judaic (if not
                                  >anti-religious if you want to bring in "the" Christians (as if a
                                  >single known quantity at the time)) commandments by Jesus which,
                                  >if commanded to a Jewish audience in the name of God would bring
                                  >out the stones.
                                  >
                                  >Doubtless this is what Jon Peter has in mind as the solution to
                                  >his riddle.

                                  Don't know about Jon - I think he's suffering from the same "eureka-itis"
                                  I've had umpteen times over the years. Usually goes away in a few days.

                                  But the big problem I see with #14 (in addition to its not being in any
                                  sense a followup to what J has said to T before taking him aside) is that
                                  there ain't just three parts to it - there's four. Admittedly, the fourth
                                  part doesn't have the same simplicity to it that the first three have. But
                                  in #6, the disciples have asked four questions, and in #14 J gives four
                                  answers - all plausibly deserving of stoning by orthodox Jews:

                                  (6a) "Do you want us to fast?"
                                  (14a)"If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves."

                                  (6b) "And what is the way that we should pray?"
                                  (14b)"If you pray, you will be condemned."

                                  (6c) "Shall we give alms?"
                                  (14c)"If you give alms, you will make evil for your spirits."

                                  (6d) "And should we abstain from what foods?"
                                  (14d)"If you go abroad ... eat what(ever) is set before you ..."

                                  Don't fast, don't pray, don't give alms, don't observe food laws: all four,
                                  ISTM, on a par with each other, in spite of 14d being obscured by
                                  additional verbiage. Is this additional verbiage really enough to set the
                                  first three apart, when the questions in #6 are so obviously a foursome,
                                  rather than three plus one? I think you gotta do a little more work here,
                                  Steve.

                                  Mike
                                  ------------------------------------
                                  Resources for the Study of NH Codex2
                                  http://www.geocities.com/athens/9068

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                                • Tord Svenson
                                  Concerning praying and fasting in #14 104) They said [to Jesus], Come, let us pray today and let us fast. Jesus said, What is the sin that I have committed,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 9, 1999
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                                    Concerning praying and fasting in #14
                                    104) They said [to Jesus], "Come, let us pray today and let us fast."
                                    Jesus said, "What is the sin that I have committed, or wherein have I been
                                    defeated? But when the bridegroom leaves the bridal chamber, then let them
                                    fast and pray."
                                    ---------------------
                                    Praying and fasting are signs of sin and defeat -- don't fast and pray
                                    UNTIL you need to.
                                    Tord


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                                  • Tord Svenson
                                    ... 36) Jesus said, Do not worry from dawn to dusk and from dusk to dawn about [what food] you [will] eat ... Tord ... eGroup home:
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 9, 1999
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                                      At 01:07 AM 2/9/99 -0500, Mike wrote:
                                      ---------- snip --------------
                                      >(6d) "And should we abstain from what foods?"
                                      >(14d)"If you go abroad ... eat what(ever) is set before you ..."

                                      --------- Reply --------------
                                      36) Jesus said, "Do not worry from dawn to dusk and from dusk to dawn about
                                      [what food] you [will] eat
                                      >
                                      Tord


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                                    • Jon Peter
                                      A few weeks ago we were all saying #14 was out of position due to scribal error. (It should be after #6.) Now it s the solution to #13? If so then the position
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 9, 1999
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                                        A few weeks ago we were all saying #14 was out of position due to scribal
                                        error. (It should be after #6.) Now it's the solution to #13? If so then the
                                        position "error" was deliberate after all, and our attention is being draw
                                        to it?

                                        As for the 3rd clue: Yes, we're within a stones' throw: It's the odd fire
                                        coming out to burn them up. Decipher that yet?

                                        Regards,

                                        Jon


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                                      • Tord Svenson
                                        ... I ve got it. The Stones are about to go on tour. #13 predicts that their plane will crash and all will be burned up. James the Righteous Taylor will regain
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 9, 1999
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                                          At 02:17 AM 2/9/99 -0800, Jon wrote:
                                          ------ snip ----------
                                          >As for the 3rd clue: Yes, we're within a stones' throw: It's the odd fire
                                          >coming out to burn them up. Decipher that yet?
                                          >
                                          >Regards,
                                          >
                                          >Jon
                                          --------- Reply -----------
                                          I've got it. The Stones are about to go on tour. #13 predicts that their
                                          plane will crash and all will be burned up. James the Righteous Taylor will
                                          regain his ascendancy by singing a redacted version of "Fire and Rain" at
                                          the world televised State funeral in West Minster Abby and world peace will
                                          follow.

                                          82) Jesus said, "He who is near Me is near the fire, and he who is far
                                          from Me is far from the Kingdom."
                                          The fire from the stones is Jesus' spiritual presence which "burns up" the
                                          vengeful disciples' dualistic,"right and wrong" mental suffering and makes
                                          them new men in the Kingdom.

                                          That puts a positive spin on the stones and the fire.
                                          Tord
                                          ----------------------------------------
                                          "L'humor es la distancia mes curta entre dues persones"
                                          Victor Borge
                                          -----------------------------



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                                        • Peter Novak
                                          ... This actually reminds me more of There is no birth of consciousness without pain. - Jung and To be a Christian is the most terrible of all torments; it
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 9, 1999
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                                            Tord Svenson wrote:
                                            > 82) Jesus said, "He who is near Me is near the fire, and he who is far
                                            > from Me is far from the Kingdom."


                                            This actually reminds me more of
                                            "There is no birth of consciousness without pain."
                                            - Jung

                                            and
                                            "To be a Christian is the most terrible of all torments; it is - and
                                            must be - to have one's hell on earth."
                                            -Soren Kierkegaard

                                            and
                                            "As soon as high consciousness is reached, the enjoyment of existence is
                                            entwined with pain, frustration, loss, tragedy."
                                            - Alfred North Whitehead

                                            and
                                            "We cannot learn without pain."
                                            - Aristotle

                                            and
                                            "Adversity is the first path to truth."
                                            - Lord Byron

                                            and
                                            "To be wholly loved with the whole heart, one must be suffering. Pity is
                                            the last consecration of love, or is, perhaps, love itself."
                                            - Heinrich Heine

                                            and
                                            "You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which
                                            you really stop to look fear in the face ... You must do the thing which
                                            you think you cannot do."
                                            - Eleanor Roosevelt

                                            but mostly
                                            "The capacity for feeling pain increases with knowledge ... A degree
                                            which is the higher the more intelligent the man is."
                                            - Arthur Schopenhauer

                                            To gain wisdom and knowledge and enlightenment is to wrestle fire away
                                            from the gods. You're gonna get burnt a little in the process.

                                            - Peter Novak

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