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[GTh] Re: In your presence (out)...

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  • benedictlo1
    Mike: I really appreciate your effort in explaining all these in such a detail. Academically, it makes a lot of sense to carefully analyze them so that we can
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 26, 2006
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      Mike:

      I really appreciate your effort in explaining all these in such a
      detail. Academically, it makes a lot of sense to carefully analyze
      them so that we can compare them and understand the potential
      indications of these words. In L52, I have already discussed my point
      which is based on the other related sayings and treat the gThomas
      message as a whole. I agree that
      > in L111,
      > the one who won't see death is "he-who-lives FROM he-who-lives",
      > i.e., notthe Living One himself. (It presumably going without saying
      > that the Living One himself won't see death.)

      I particularly favor your discussion on "the dead"
      > Just as "living" almost always (if not always) means 'spiritually
      > living' rather than 'physically living' in GThom, so also does
      > 'dead' almost always mean 'spiritually dead'. Whatever the original
      > contextual meaning of the L52 exchange between Yeshua and his
      > disciples, it seems to me that within the context of GThom, L52
      > was understood as asserting that the prophets were spiritually dead
      > - and that's a serious indictment of the Hebrew scriptures, as well
      > as anything they might contain - such as prophecies about a Jewish
      > messiah.
      One potential question is what about Paul and Paul's letters
      (considering this first)?

      I grew up in a dual culture environment. One of them is the Pauline
      Christian. For now, I would speak more from another prospective in the
      forums. So next time, when you discuss the gThomas with Dalai Lama,
      D.T. Suzuki, or Thin-min Tach, et al, you gays can communicate a bit
      with them (just joking).

      During the past three weeks, I learned a lot from the both forums.
      However, I need to be excused for a while (hopefully not a few months).

      Ta Ta for now.

      Benedict
    • Michael Grondin
      ... I m at a loss to explain that. I guess maybe Benedict has ahold of the same version, but I m unable to find it. Both current presentations
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 26, 2006
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        [Ron]:
        > Just a quick question on the leaving out of "out". I take it you are not
        > amending your own translation of L52 which includes it, but I wanted
        > to ask you whether your translation doesn't lend itself to the notion
        > that Jesus is complaining that he has been left "out" of the mention
        > of "prophets"- which turns around the notion of absolute repudiation
        > and resembles the John "parallel" meaning. My copy of your
        > translated logion reads You have left he who lives in Your presence
        > out, ..."

        I'm at a loss to explain that. I guess maybe Benedict has ahold of the same
        version, but I'm unable to find it. Both current presentations
        (saying-by-saying and page-by-page) leave 'ebol' untranslated in L52 and
        L111.

        [Mike]:
        > In L52, the context clearly indicates that the Living One "in your
        > presence" is Yeshua.

        [Ron]:
        > I agree wholeheartedly that here it is so used, although elsewhere in
        > Thomas the Living One may also mean God- such as "... see the son
        > of the Living One and you will not fear."

        That would be L59, I suppose, but it doesn't contain the phrase 'the son
        of'. It advises to seek "the Living One" hisself. I haven't done a critical
        survey, and I'm not up on the literature, so I'm not clear whether
        "he-who-lives" can always be understood as referring to Yeshua, or
        whether it sometimes has to be taken as referring to "the Father", as
        you suggest - or maybe occasionally ambiguous between the two.
        Or sometimes as whoever "lives" - as apparently in L111.

        > Is [L52] really repudiating all prophecy, including the Messianic? I just
        > wonder if we can go that far based on this wording- which is why I thought
        > there was still some "wiggle room" here.

        I understood that your reason for thinking there was "wiggle room" was that
        you took GThom to be a "tier 2" text which didn't address "tier 1" concerns.
        At any rate, it's not just this saying, but the absence of the title
        'Christ' from the text (as well as Contender), and the general rejection of
        some very basic Judaeo-Christian pietistic acts - most notably prayer.

        Regards,
        Mike
      • Judy Redman
        ... Yep, the version of it that I have (downloaded last year some time) L52 says you have left he who lives in your presence ( ),... I, of course, like
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 27, 2006
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          Mike writes:

          > [Ron]:
          > > Just a quick question on the leaving out of "out". I take
          > it you are
          > > not amending your own translation of L52 which includes it, but I
          > > wanted to ask you whether your translation doesn't lend
          > itself to the
          > > notion that Jesus is complaining that he has been left "out" of the
          > > mention of "prophets"- which turns around the notion of absolute
          > > repudiation and resembles the John "parallel" meaning. My
          > copy of your
          > > translated logion reads You have left he who lives in Your presence
          > > out, ..."
          >
          > I'm at a loss to explain that. I guess maybe Benedict has
          > ahold of the same version, but I'm unable to find it. Both
          > current presentations (saying-by-saying and page-by-page)
          > leave 'ebol' untranslated in L52 and L111.

          Yep, the version of it that I have (downloaded last year some time) L52 says
          "you have left he who lives in your presence ( ),..." I, of course,
          like it with the translation of ebol left in, because it suggests that Jesus
          is complaining that they are listening *only* to the prophets who are
          *literally* dead, rather than also listening to him. :-)

          The meaning and translation of L111 are significantly less straightforward -
          what you choose to do with the ebols is only one of the issue, but in the
          version I have, the first one is left out, the second translated.

          Judy
        • Dr Simon Gathercole
          Can we just dispel some myths about ebol. It generally has an approximate sense of out (it s related to the verb bwl, to loosen, untie), but in combination
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 27, 2006
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            Can we just dispel some myths about ebol. It generally has an approximate
            sense of "out" (it's related to the verb bwl, to loosen, untie), but in
            combination it has varied meanings. This is true generally of words of this
            sort in Coptic. One way to show this easily is that "ebol" can actually be
            combined with the preposition "hn" which means "in". But there's no
            mystical meaning ("out-in"!) to ebol hn! Anyway, bottom line: you can't
            just translate every instance of ebol as "out".

            Right. I've got that off my chest now!
            Simon


            ------------
            Dr Simon Gathercole
            Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            University of Aberdeen

            01224 272374
          • Michael Grondin
            ... Yes, but more closely related to the masculine noun BOL, I think - which means the outside , according to Lambdin. ... Exactly. I ve translated it a
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 27, 2006
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              Simon writes:

              > Can we just dispel some myths about ebol. It generally has an approximate
              > sense of "out" (it's related to the verb bwl, to loosen, untie), ...

              Yes, but more closely related to the masculine noun BOL, I think - which
              means 'the outside', according to Lambdin.

              > ... but in combination it has varied meanings. ... bottom line:
              > you can't just translate every instance of ebol as "out".

              Exactly. I've translated it a number of ways, depending on what word it's
              used with - and sometimes leaving it untranslated if it doesn't add
              anything.

              Judy writes:

              > Yep, the version of it that I have (downloaded last year some time) L52
              > says
              > "you have left he who lives in your presence ( ),..." I, of course,
              > like it with the translation of ebol left in, because it suggests that
              > Jesus
              > is complaining that they are listening *only* to the prophets who are
              > *literally* dead, rather than also listening to him. :-)

              That may be one reason that I took out the translation of 'ebol' - so that
              it couldn't be understood to mean 'left out' (which would in effect read the
              'ebol' as applying to 'kw' rather than 'mto'). The disciples' statement
              about the 24 prophets is problematical, but it seems to me to imply that the
              prophets are talking in or through Jesus - i.e., that's he's saying nothing
              more than what they said, albeit perhaps with new language. They could do
              that even if they were literally (physically) dead, so I take J's rejection
              of that claim to be more radical than just that they're physically dead and
              he isn't.

              > The meaning and translation of L111 are significantly less straightforward
              > [than L52] - what you choose to do with the ebols is only one of the
              > issue,
              > but in the version I have, the first one is left out, the second
              > translated.

              The first goes with 'Mto'; the second goes with 'hn' to mean 'out of' or
              'from'.
              I think that Ron and Benedict have a version where I had apparently
              translated the first 'ebol'.

              Regards,
              Mike
            • Ron McCann
              Thank s Mike, My copy is one typed up from your web-site by Monica Johannsen may years back, and E-mailed to me. For some reason, I was unable to download your
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 27, 2006
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                Thank's Mike,

                My copy is one typed up from your web-site by Monica Johannsen may years
                back, and E-mailed to me. For some reason, I was unable to download your
                site translation at that time. Perhaps it is her own addition or an inadvertant
                typo. I don't know why Benedict's version would have the same word there.

                The "son of the Living One" phrase I was referring to is in logion 37.

                I don't think we can be certain of which reading of 52 is the correct one. The
                translations are all over the place, supporting various readings.
                That this is a
                blanket invalidation of the prophets and their writings is not the
                only reasonable
                "take". This is not as black and white as the L6-L14 repudiation.
                The Jesus Seminar who generate an equally equivocal and bland version,
                concluded "The saying therefore masks a polemic against the Hebrew
                scriptures."
                When I "shake down" the 7-8 different translations I've seen of this,
                reading it
                in the broader context of Thomas as you have suggested, the correct reading
                seems to be that the Law and the Prophets are indeed being given the boot
                in favour of Jesus' own authority and instruction.
                As far as second-tier Christian (and maybe even Jewish) seekers are
                concerned they are to be ignored.
                I think that "dead-alive" tracer cinches this.

                Ron

                At 01:39 AM 27/01/06, Mike wrote:
                >[Ron]:
                > > Just a quick question on the leaving out of "out". I take it you are not
                > > amending your own translation of L52 which includes it, but I wanted
                > > to ask you whether your translation doesn't lend itself to the notion
                > > that Jesus is complaining that he has been left "out" of the mention
                > > of "prophets"- which turns around the notion of absolute repudiation
                > > and resembles the John "parallel" meaning. My copy of your
                > > translated logion reads You have left he who lives in Your presence
                > > out, ..."
                >
                >I'm at a loss to explain that. I guess maybe Benedict has ahold of the same
                >version, but I'm unable to find it. Both current presentations
                >(saying-by-saying and page-by-page) leave 'ebol' untranslated in L52 and
                >L111.
                >
                >[Mike]:
                > > In L52, the context clearly indicates that the Living One "in your
                > > presence" is Yeshua.
                >
                >[Ron]:
                > > I agree wholeheartedly that here it is so used, although elsewhere in
                > > Thomas the Living One may also mean God- such as "... see the son
                > > of the Living One and you will not fear."
                >
                >That would be L59, I suppose, but it doesn't contain the phrase 'the son
                >of'. It advises to seek "the Living One" hisself. I haven't done a critical
                >survey, and I'm not up on the literature, so I'm not clear whether
                >"he-who-lives" can always be understood as referring to Yeshua, or
                >whether it sometimes has to be taken as referring to "the Father", as
                >you suggest - or maybe occasionally ambiguous between the two.
                >Or sometimes as whoever "lives" - as apparently in L111.
                >
                > > Is [L52] really repudiating all prophecy, including the Messianic? I just
                > > wonder if we can go that far based on this wording- which is why I thought
                > > there was still some "wiggle room" here.
                >
                >I understood that your reason for thinking there was "wiggle room" was that
                >you took GThom to be a "tier 2" text which didn't address "tier 1" concerns.
                >At any rate, it's not just this saying, but the absence of the title
                >'Christ' from the text (as well as Contender), and the general rejection of
                >some very basic Judaeo-Christian pietistic acts - most notably prayer.
                >
                >Regards,
                >Mike
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Michael Grondin
                ... More likely I had it in there a long time back, before the Nov 2002 version that I worked up for the SBL meeting that year. There s probably a number of
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 27, 2006
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                  [Ron]:
                  > My copy is one typed up from your web-site by Monica Johannsen may years
                  > back, and E-mailed to me. For some reason, I was unable to download your
                  > site translation at that time. Perhaps it is her own addition or an
                  > inadvertant
                  > typo.

                  More likely I had it in there a long time back, before the Nov 2002 version
                  that I worked up for the SBL meeting that year. There's probably a number of
                  other changes, so it may be worthwhile to save or print out the current pdf
                  file. If you have any problems, let me know.

                  > I don't know why Benedict's version would have the same word there.

                  He might have filled in the parentheses.

                  > The "son of the Living One" phrase I was referring to is in logion 37.

                  Sorry, you're right. I hadn't remembered that there was a 'son of the Living
                  One' in the text. That makes a difference.

                  Mike
                • Dr Simon Gathercole
                  Mike, Sure: vb BWL, n. BOL, adv. EBOL are all cognates. S ... Dr Simon Gathercole Senior Lecturer in New Testament University of Aberdeen 01224 272374
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 30, 2006
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                    Mike,
                    Sure: vb BWL, n. BOL, adv. EBOL are all cognates.

                    S


                    At 11:00 27/01/2006 -0500, you wrote:
                    >Simon writes:
                    >
                    > > Can we just dispel some myths about ebol. It generally has an approximate
                    > > sense of "out" (it's related to the verb bwl, to loosen, untie), ...
                    >
                    >Yes, but more closely related to the masculine noun BOL, I think - which
                    >means 'the outside', according to Lambdin.
                    >
                    > > ... but in combination it has varied meanings. ... bottom line:
                    > > you can't just translate every instance of ebol as "out".
                    >
                    >Exactly. I've translated it a number of ways, depending on what word it's
                    >used with - and sometimes leaving it untranslated if it doesn't add
                    >anything.
                    >
                    >Judy writes:
                    >
                    > > Yep, the version of it that I have (downloaded last year some time) L52
                    > > says
                    > > "you have left he who lives in your presence ( ),..." I, of course,
                    > > like it with the translation of ebol left in, because it suggests that
                    > > Jesus
                    > > is complaining that they are listening *only* to the prophets who are
                    > > *literally* dead, rather than also listening to him. :-)
                    >
                    >That may be one reason that I took out the translation of 'ebol' - so that
                    >it couldn't be understood to mean 'left out' (which would in effect read the
                    >'ebol' as applying to 'kw' rather than 'mto'). The disciples' statement
                    >about the 24 prophets is problematical, but it seems to me to imply that the
                    >prophets are talking in or through Jesus - i.e., that's he's saying nothing
                    >more than what they said, albeit perhaps with new language. They could do
                    >that even if they were literally (physically) dead, so I take J's rejection
                    >of that claim to be more radical than just that they're physically dead and
                    >he isn't.
                    >
                    > > The meaning and translation of L111 are significantly less straightforward
                    > > [than L52] - what you choose to do with the ebols is only one of the
                    > > issue,
                    > > but in the version I have, the first one is left out, the second
                    > > translated.
                    >
                    >The first goes with 'Mto'; the second goes with 'hn' to mean 'out of' or
                    >'from'.
                    >I think that Ron and Benedict have a version where I had apparently
                    >translated the first 'ebol'.
                    >
                    >Regards,
                    >Mike
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >--------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                    >To unsubscribe from this group,
                    >send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
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                    >
                    >


                    ------------
                    Dr Simon Gathercole
                    Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                    University of Aberdeen

                    01224 272374
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