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Re: A preliminarily work on a few passages in GHoly12 associated with GThomas

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  • smithandp
    Hi benedict, If you post the parallels between Thomas and GHoly12 we could discuss them. It looks like Ousley used known agrapha when he constructed the
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 18, 2006
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      Hi benedict,

      If you post the parallels between Thomas and GHoly12 we could discuss
      them. It looks like Ousley used known agrapha when he constructed the
      gospel. The preface claimed "...Their Gospel of the Holy Twelve was
      communicated to the Editors, in numerous fragments at different times,
      by Emmanuel Swedenborg, Anna Kingsford, Edward Maitland, and a priest
      of the former century, giving his name as Placidus, of the Franciscan
      Order, afterwards a Carmelite. By them it was as translated from the
      original, and given to the Editors in the flesh, to be supplemented in
      their proper places, where indicated, from the "Four Gospels" (A.V.)
      revised where necessary by the same."

      Best Wishes

      Andrew

      --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@y...> wrote:
      >
      > A few years ago, my friend introduced me about the Gospel of Holy 12
      > (GoH12), I quickly scanned it and found that it is a book compiled
      > canonical gospels and other things with vegetarian episodes. It made
      > me immediately think "the current form of Genesis". I then checked
      > the web and found that several places post the entire book in their
      > websites. With further checking, I also learned that most scholars
      > think that this book is a fake one. Before I gave up, I went back to
      > read a little bit more. I was shocked that there are quite a few
      > passages that I thought unique in the GoTh but shown in the GoH12. I
      > therefore took some efforts translating entire English text of the
      > book into Chinese and coded different sources with different colors
      > for my research purposes. I also highlighted those places related to
      > GoTh and wrote commentaries based on my biblical research in
      > vegetarian and my study in Essene. Because the earliest edition I
      > could find is the 1923 version of GoH12, I decided to visit the
      > British Library. But the librarians of BL told me that their earlier
      > version copies of the GoH12 were destroyed during the WWII. Because
      > my research is incomplete, I could not publish anything with it. I
      > have two plans in my mind:
      > (1) If the earlier version of GoH12 contains the same GoTh material as
      > the later versions, I will publish my color coded Chinese GoH12
      > translation.
      > (2) If the earlier version of GoH12 does not contain the same GoTh
      > material as the later versions, I will not publish my Chinese
      > translation. However, I will write a paper reporting my investigation
      > of the GoH12.
      >
      > I am stuck now. Can anybody in this group help?
      >
      > Andew: You know more scholars in the field of GoTh. Does anybody
      > study this kind of thing? I will be more than happy to discuss my
      > research with the individual who has studied this area. By the time
      > this thing becomes clear, Chinese can be a major language. That is
      > why I write everything in Chinese now :-).
      >
      > In my Chinese GoTh book, I did quote some GoH12 texts for those places
      > highly associated with GoTh verses. But I did point out in the book
      > that that the information complied in the GoH12 is considered fake in
      > the biblical society. However, there are some overlapped between the
      > GoH12 and the GoTh for unknown reasons.
      >
      > On the other hand, if the author(s) of GoH12 intended to compile
      > gospel material become one book as the author of current Geneses did.
      > It may be interesting to find out which part of the GoTh is fake and
      > which part may come from somewhere or nowhere but helpful or
      > interesting. For a long time, oriental spiritual approaches such as
      > Da-Jern Jin do embrace all trustful and qualified fake ones for
      > everybody's critical review.
      >
      >
      > Benedict
      >
    • benedictlo1
      ... discuss them. ... I am sure that I have not exhausted all the potential correlated materials. So let me post the first set of my problems below. Your
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 18, 2006
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        > Hi benedict,
        >
        > If you post the parallels between Thomas and GHoly12 we could
        discuss them.
        >[snip]
        > Andrew

        I am sure that I have not exhausted all the potential correlated
        materials. So let me post the first set of my problems below. Your
        and/or others' help are greatly appreciated.

        Benedict

        [ I use " xxxx " to indicate correlected text. ]
        =========================================
        GH12 - 88:5
        "And Jesus said, I stood in the midst of the world, and in
        the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their
        own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I
        hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth
        over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their
        heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice."

        GTh – 28 (Greek)
        "Jesus saith: I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was
        I seen of them, and I found and men drunken, and none found I athirst
        among them, and my soul grieveth over the sons of men because they are
        blind in their heart."

        ==========================
        GH12 – 27:12
        …. But a city which is built foursquare, enclosed in a circle or on
        the top of a hill, and "established on a rock, can neither fall" nor
        be hidden.

        GH12 – 39:6
        Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a City "built foursquare on
        the top of a high hill, and established on a rock, and strong in its
        surrounding wall", and its towers and its gates, which lie to the
        north, and to the south, and to the east, and to the west. Such a
        city falleth not, neither can it be hidden,…

        GTh – 32
        A city built upon the top of a hill "and fortified, can neither fall"
        nor be hidden.

        ============================
        GH12 – 13:5
        And he said: Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own
        home or in his own country, "neither doth a physician work cures upon
        them that know him."

        GTh - 31
        Jesus said, A prophet is not … . "Nor does a physican perform healings
        for those who know him."

        ============================
        GH12 - 39:5
        Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a woman who taketh of the
        incorruptible leaven and hideth it in three measures of meal, till the
        whole is leavened, and being baked by fire, "becometh one loaf." …

        GTh - 96
        Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a woman. She took a ..., and
        "made it into large loaves of bread"...

        ============================
        GH12 - 19:6
        "Raise the Stone, and there thou shall find me. Cleave the wood, and
        there am I." For in the fire and in the water even as in every living
        form, God is manifest as it's Life and it's Substance.

        GTh – 30 (Greek)
        Jesus said, …, I say, I am with him. "Lift the stone and there you
        will find me. Split the wood and I am there."

        ============================
        (The following ones are not in the sense of words but in meaning)
        GH12 - 64:7
        "From the Eternal they flow, to the Eternal they return." The spirit
        to Spirit, soul to Soul, mind to Mind, sense to Sense, life to Life,
        form to Form, dust to Dust.

        GH12 - 94:2
        "As all creatures come forth from the unseen into this world, so they
        return to the unseen, and so will they come again till they be purified."


        GTh - 49
        Jesus said: Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you
        will find the kingdom. "For you have come from it, and you will return
        there again."

        GTh - 77
        Jesus said: "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me
        all came forth, and to me all attained."
        =============================================
      • smithandp
        Benedict, The simple answer is that Ousley used the Oxyrhynchus Greek fragments of Thomas published by Grenfell and Hunt in 1898 and 1904. The sayings below
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 19, 2006
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          Benedict,

          The simple answer is that Ousley used the Oxyrhynchus Greek fragments
          of Thomas published by Grenfell and Hunt in 1898 and 1904. The sayings
          below that aren't in the Greek Thomas fragments have synoptic
          parallels which would have been Ouseley's source.

          Best Wishes

          Andrew

          --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "benedictlo1" <benedictlo1@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > Hi benedict,
          > >
          > > If you post the parallels between Thomas and GHoly12 we could
          > discuss them.
          > >[snip]
          > > Andrew
          >
          > I am sure that I have not exhausted all the potential correlated
          > materials. So let me post the first set of my problems below. Your
          > and/or others' help are greatly appreciated.
          >
          > Benedict
          >
          > [ I use " xxxx " to indicate correlected text. ]
          > =========================================
          > GH12 - 88:5
          > "And Jesus said, I stood in the midst of the world, and in
          > the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their
          > own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I
          > hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth
          > over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their
          > heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice."
          >
          > GTh – 28 (Greek)
          > "Jesus saith: I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was
          > I seen of them, and I found and men drunken, and none found I athirst
          > among them, and my soul grieveth over the sons of men because they are
          > blind in their heart."
          >
          > ==========================
          > GH12 – 27:12
          > …. But a city which is built foursquare, enclosed in a circle or on
          > the top of a hill, and "established on a rock, can neither fall" nor
          > be hidden.
          >
          > GH12 – 39:6
          > Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a City "built foursquare on
          > the top of a high hill, and established on a rock, and strong in its
          > surrounding wall", and its towers and its gates, which lie to the
          > north, and to the south, and to the east, and to the west. Such a
          > city falleth not, neither can it be hidden,…
          >
          > GTh – 32
          > A city built upon the top of a hill "and fortified, can neither fall"
          > nor be hidden.
          >
          > ============================
          > GH12 – 13:5
          > And he said: Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own
          > home or in his own country, "neither doth a physician work cures upon
          > them that know him."
          >
          > GTh - 31
          > Jesus said, A prophet is not … . "Nor does a physican perform healings
          > for those who know him."
          >
          > ============================
          > GH12 - 39:5
          > Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a woman who taketh of the
          > incorruptible leaven and hideth it in three measures of meal, till the
          > whole is leavened, and being baked by fire, "becometh one loaf." …
          >
          > GTh - 96
          > Jesus said, The Father's kingdom is like a woman. She took a ..., and
          > "made it into large loaves of bread"...
          >
          > ============================
          > GH12 - 19:6
          > "Raise the Stone, and there thou shall find me. Cleave the wood, and
          > there am I." For in the fire and in the water even as in every living
          > form, God is manifest as it's Life and it's Substance.
          >
          > GTh – 30 (Greek)
          > Jesus said, …, I say, I am with him. "Lift the stone and there you
          > will find me. Split the wood and I am there."
          >
          > ============================
          > (The following ones are not in the sense of words but in meaning)
          > GH12 - 64:7
          > "From the Eternal they flow, to the Eternal they return." The spirit
          > to Spirit, soul to Soul, mind to Mind, sense to Sense, life to Life,
          > form to Form, dust to Dust.
          >
          > GH12 - 94:2
          > "As all creatures come forth from the unseen into this world, so they
          > return to the unseen, and so will they come again till they be
          purified."
          >
          >
          > GTh - 49
          > Jesus said: Congratulations to those who are alone and chosen, for you
          > will find the kingdom. "For you have come from it, and you will return
          > there again."
          >
          > GTh - 77
          > Jesus said: "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me
          > all came forth, and to me all attained."
          > =============================================
          >
        • benedictlo1
          ... Andrew: I believe others investigators including myself would have a similar answer. To be fair, we need to find the earliest version of GH12 (1892-189?),
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 19, 2006
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            > Benedict,
            >
            > The simple answer is that Ousley used the Oxyrhynchus Greek fragments
            > of Thomas published by Grenfell and Hunt in 1898 and 1904. The sayings
            > below that aren't in the Greek Thomas fragments have synoptic
            > parallels which would have been Ouseley's source.
            >
            > Best Wishes
            >
            > Andrew


            Andrew:

            I believe others investigators including myself would have a similar
            answer. To be fair, we need to find the earliest version of GH12
            (1892-189?), to prove that these were not in there and junk it.

            However, personally I like several chapters made up or collected from
            somewhere in GH12. In terms of quality, some of these are much better
            than those collected in old old days by some unknown persons. But many
            missionaries from the West come, proclaim that the collection is
            nothing but the TRUTH, and push everybody to worship it.

            One major reason that I brought GThomas to Chinese people's attention
            is because its unequaled quality. In addition, its spiritual approch
            in some way is very similar to the Zen but 500 years earlier.


            Benedict
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