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RE: [GTh]

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  • William Arnal
    ... Aw, c mon. . . . surely we don t need this kind of thing. April deConick is a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the Gospel
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
      Ron McCann wrote:

      >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
      >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
      >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
      >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
      >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.

      Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
      a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
      Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
      other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
      inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
      look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
      whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
      "lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
      the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
      of her arguments, and so forth.

      >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.

      This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
      be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?

      And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
      them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
      approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.

      regards,
      Bill
      ______________________
      William Arnal
      University of Regina
    • Ron McCann
      Bill, Rebuke taken, and well deserved. Whatever got into me? Ron
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
        Bill,
        Rebuke taken, and well deserved.
        Whatever got into me?

        Ron
        At 06:17 PM 11/2/05, you wrote:

        >Ron McCann wrote:
        >
        > >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
        > >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
        > >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
        > >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
        > >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
        >
        >Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
        >a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
        >Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
        >other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
        >inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
        >look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
        >whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
        >"lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
        >the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
        >of her arguments, and so forth.
        >
        > >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
        >
        >This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
        >be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?
        >
        >And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
        >them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
        >approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.
        >
        >regards,
        >Bill
        >______________________
        >William Arnal
        >University of Regina
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate whatever information he can provide about
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
          At 02:49 PM 11/2/2005 -0600, Ron McCann wrote:
          >Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
          >friends

          I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and
          April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate
          whatever information he can provide about her new book.

          Stephen Carlson

          --
          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
          Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
          Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
        • Judy Redman
          ... Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don t come cheap, unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
            David writes:
            >
            > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
            > D.R.

            Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don't come cheap,
            unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
            rather than paperbacks with lower quality paper, but I buy my hardcovers
            secondhand whenever I can (I love Abe Books!!) and I often decided that I'll
            even buy paperbacks secondhand because the information is still the same.

            I think you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in this kind of
            field. Use words like "Traditiongeschichtliche" and you get accused of
            being elitist, obscure etc. Write something that is going to be more
            readily accessible to the non-specialist reader (like Elaine Pagels' "Beyond
            Belief") and you get dismissed as writing "theology lite".

            It's particularly difficult, as Bill suggests, if you happen to be a female
            scholar, because if you don't use the technical terms, some people are not
            above suggesting that this is because you don't understand them and that
            your level of scholarship is pretty low, just like you'd expect of a woman.
            OTOH, it is also difficult if you are an intelligent, interested 'lay
            person' ie someone who hasn't had formal university education the field but
            wants to get beyond "Isn't GThos cool and I just love being a gnostic" and
            the books you want to read are sprinkled with unexplained technical terms.
            I suspect that if more people had written theology that was accessible to
            the intelligent layperson there wouldn't be anywhere near the problem with
            Christian fundamentalism that I see today.

            I've just spent half an hour trying to work out how to translate
            "Traditionsgeschichtliche" neatly but helpfully into English (hampered by
            having my theological German dictionary at work, admittedly) and haven't
            come up with anything all that wonderful. I guess Tradition Critical, but I
            have never found the term Biblical Criticism or its variants particularly
            helpful. No matter how many times I assure myself that criticism in this
            sense means 'careful analytical study of' rather than 'articulating in
            minute detail how wrong something is', I still need to do a double take
            every time I see the term.

            I've found DeConick's other works helpful and scholarly and this table of
            contents looks as though it will come up to the same standard.

            Judy

            --
            " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
            the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

            Rev Judy Redman
            Uniting Church Chaplain
            University of New England
            Armidale 2351
            ph: +61 2 6773 3739
            fax: +61 2 6773 3749
            web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
            email: jredman@...


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
            > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 11:03 PM
            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [GTh]
            >
            >
            > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
            > D.R.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
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          • David Renfro
            I wish I d put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0). This is a tough crowd, y all make the Gnostic s look like Party-animals. I ve been anticipating this
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
              I wish I'd put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0).
              This is a tough crowd, y'all make the Gnostic's look like
              Party-animals.
              I've been anticipating this book for months and will eventually
              come off the money for the hard cover; I like books.
              Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
              "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any traditionsgeschichtliche.
              Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.
              Answers.com gave me this.
              David Renfro

              Re: orion-list War Scroll and Cargo cults
              P. von der Osten-Sacken, Gott und Belial: Traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen
              zum Dualismus in den Texten aus Qumran (Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht: Göttingen, ...
              orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/ archives/2000b/msg00207.html

              NT-genre
              For the missionary speech in general see Ulrich Wilckens, Die Missionsrede der
              Apostelgeschichte: Form- und traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen, 2nd ed. ...
              www.cranfordville.com/NT-genre.htm
            • Judy Redman
              ... Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
                David writes:

                > Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                > "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any
                > traditionsgeschichtliche.
                > Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.

                Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that
                I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                answers for them. And much of the thinking around this will be of use when
                I write the methodology chapter of my thesis. :-)

                In case it shouldn't have had a smiley, looking at the list of sections
                under the heading "New" Traditionsgeschichtliche Approach


                1.1 The Historical Contexture of Traditions
                1.2 The Referential Horizon of Traditions
                1.3 The Communal Nature of Traditions
                1.4 The Responsive Nature of Traditions
                1.5 The Shift of Traditions
                1.6 Streams of Traditions
                1.7 Transmission of Traditions

                it seems likely that DeConick is proposing that there are some particular
                things that need to be taken into account in Traditionsgeschichte that
                haven't been looked at so intentionally in the past. I have no memory of
                seeing a list of things that need to be considered that included all these
                things. I'm used to much more general statements such as "Tradition
                criticism (including form criticism) studies how information was passed from
                one generation to another before it was put in its present form. ...
                Tradition criticism attempts to trace the stages by which these traditions
                were handed down, the forms they took at those various stages, and the forms
                in which they reached the people who committed them to writing."
                (http://www.shakinandshinin.org/BiblicalCriticism.html) So perhaps the new
                approach is a more structured and intentional one.

                We will have to wait until we get copies of the book and see.

                Judy

                --
                " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                Rev Judy Redman
                Uniting Church Chaplain
                University of New England
                Armidale 2351
                ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                email: jredman@...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Renfro
                Judy, I ran across a cool word recently that seems appropriate to the topic; Euhemerist , (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if you don t already
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
                  Judy,
                  I ran across a "cool" word recently that seems appropriate to
                  the topic; "Euhemerist", (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if
                  you don't already know it.
                  I like it when a single word covers so much ground.
                  Dave Renfro
                • rhubbard@midmaine.com
                  Hi all! By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche / traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
                    Hi all!

                    By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                    traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                    Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                    called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                    (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                    a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                    uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                    Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                    which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                    know ļ:

                    Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                    Naturweisheit
                    Prostaxis
                    Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                    Homoioarchton


                    Rick Hubbard
                    Humble Maine Woodsman
                  • David Renfro
                    Spare me the test, what s the skinny? Keep it woods-z. D.R. rhubbard@midmaine.com wrote: Hi all! ... Here s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
                      Spare me the test, what's the skinny? Keep it woods-z.
                      D.R.

                      rhubbard@... wrote:
                      Hi all!
                      ...
                      Here's a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should know :

                      Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                      Naturweisheit
                      Prostaxis
                      Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                      Homoioarchton

                      Rick Hubbard
                      Humble Maine Woodsman
                    • Jacob Knee
                      I think the there is a third edition now in print: Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded) by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 5, 2005
                        I think the there is a third edition now in print:

                        Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded)

                        by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen


                        Richard Soulen and R. Kendall Soulen have thoroughly revised this
                        comprehensive guide to the basic terms and concepts of biblical criticism.
                        Integrating the newest methods and theories of biblical studies, this third
                        edition contains over 800 terms, phrases, names, explanations of common
                        abbreviations, notes on major methodologies and exegetical basics,
                        biographical sketches of key figures in the history of research, analytical
                        outlines of fundamental critical problems, a list of bibliographic tools,
                        plus an invaluable Diagram of Biblical Interpretation. Everything a student
                        needs for a class in biblical interpretation. Richard N. Soulen is a retired
                        Methodist minister and professor of New Testament at the School of Theology,
                        Virginia Union University. He is also the editor of Care for the Dying:
                        Resources of Theology. R. Kendall Soulen is Professor of Systematic Theology
                        at Wesley Theological Seminary. His publications include The God of Israel
                        and Christian Theology (Fortress, 1996).

                        https://www.ppcbooks.com/Details.asp?BookID=0664223141

                        Best wishes,
                        Jacob

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        rhubbard@...
                        Sent: 04 November 2005 18:56
                        To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [GTh]

                        Hi all!

                        By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                        traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                        Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                        called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                        (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                        a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                        uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                        Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                        which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                        know ļ:

                        Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                        Naturweisheit
                        Prostaxis
                        Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                        Homoioarchton


                        Rick Hubbard
                        Humble Maine Woodsman





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