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RE: [GTh]

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  • Ron McCann
    ... Lol. I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies. Seems she
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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      At 06:02 AM 11/2/05, David R wrote:
      > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
      > D.R.

      Lol.
      I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
      at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
      Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
      otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
      friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
      The chapter synopsis seems erudite enough.
      I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
      Think I'll wait for some reviews of the book, before I bite.
      Bit pricy for me.

      Ron






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    • William Arnal
      ... Aw, c mon. . . . surely we don t need this kind of thing. April deConick is a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the Gospel
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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        Ron McCann wrote:

        >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
        >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
        >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
        >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
        >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.

        Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
        a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
        Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
        other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
        inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
        look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
        whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
        "lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
        the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
        of her arguments, and so forth.

        >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.

        This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
        be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?

        And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
        them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
        approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.

        regards,
        Bill
        ______________________
        William Arnal
        University of Regina
      • Ron McCann
        Bill, Rebuke taken, and well deserved. Whatever got into me? Ron
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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          Bill,
          Rebuke taken, and well deserved.
          Whatever got into me?

          Ron
          At 06:17 PM 11/2/05, you wrote:

          >Ron McCann wrote:
          >
          > >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
          > >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
          > >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
          > >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
          > >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
          >
          >Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
          >a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
          >Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
          >other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
          >inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
          >look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
          >whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
          >"lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
          >the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
          >of her arguments, and so forth.
          >
          > >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
          >
          >This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
          >be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?
          >
          >And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
          >them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
          >approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.
          >
          >regards,
          >Bill
          >______________________
          >William Arnal
          >University of Regina
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Stephen C. Carlson
          ... I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate whatever information he can provide about
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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            At 02:49 PM 11/2/2005 -0600, Ron McCann wrote:
            >Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
            >friends

            I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and
            April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate
            whatever information he can provide about her new book.

            Stephen Carlson

            --
            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
            Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
            Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
          • Judy Redman
            ... Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don t come cheap, unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
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              David writes:
              >
              > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
              > D.R.

              Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don't come cheap,
              unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
              rather than paperbacks with lower quality paper, but I buy my hardcovers
              secondhand whenever I can (I love Abe Books!!) and I often decided that I'll
              even buy paperbacks secondhand because the information is still the same.

              I think you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in this kind of
              field. Use words like "Traditiongeschichtliche" and you get accused of
              being elitist, obscure etc. Write something that is going to be more
              readily accessible to the non-specialist reader (like Elaine Pagels' "Beyond
              Belief") and you get dismissed as writing "theology lite".

              It's particularly difficult, as Bill suggests, if you happen to be a female
              scholar, because if you don't use the technical terms, some people are not
              above suggesting that this is because you don't understand them and that
              your level of scholarship is pretty low, just like you'd expect of a woman.
              OTOH, it is also difficult if you are an intelligent, interested 'lay
              person' ie someone who hasn't had formal university education the field but
              wants to get beyond "Isn't GThos cool and I just love being a gnostic" and
              the books you want to read are sprinkled with unexplained technical terms.
              I suspect that if more people had written theology that was accessible to
              the intelligent layperson there wouldn't be anywhere near the problem with
              Christian fundamentalism that I see today.

              I've just spent half an hour trying to work out how to translate
              "Traditionsgeschichtliche" neatly but helpfully into English (hampered by
              having my theological German dictionary at work, admittedly) and haven't
              come up with anything all that wonderful. I guess Tradition Critical, but I
              have never found the term Biblical Criticism or its variants particularly
              helpful. No matter how many times I assure myself that criticism in this
              sense means 'careful analytical study of' rather than 'articulating in
              minute detail how wrong something is', I still need to do a double take
              every time I see the term.

              I've found DeConick's other works helpful and scholarly and this table of
              contents looks as though it will come up to the same standard.

              Judy

              --
              " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
              the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

              Rev Judy Redman
              Uniting Church Chaplain
              University of New England
              Armidale 2351
              ph: +61 2 6773 3739
              fax: +61 2 6773 3749
              web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
              email: jredman@...


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
              > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 11:03 PM
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [GTh]
              >
              >
              > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
              > D.R.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • David Renfro
              I wish I d put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0). This is a tough crowd, y all make the Gnostic s look like Party-animals. I ve been anticipating this
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
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                I wish I'd put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0).
                This is a tough crowd, y'all make the Gnostic's look like
                Party-animals.
                I've been anticipating this book for months and will eventually
                come off the money for the hard cover; I like books.
                Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any traditionsgeschichtliche.
                Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.
                Answers.com gave me this.
                David Renfro

                Re: orion-list War Scroll and Cargo cults
                P. von der Osten-Sacken, Gott und Belial: Traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen
                zum Dualismus in den Texten aus Qumran (Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht: Göttingen, ...
                orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/ archives/2000b/msg00207.html

                NT-genre
                For the missionary speech in general see Ulrich Wilckens, Die Missionsrede der
                Apostelgeschichte: Form- und traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen, 2nd ed. ...
                www.cranfordville.com/NT-genre.htm
              • Judy Redman
                ... Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                  David writes:

                  > Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                  > "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any
                  > traditionsgeschichtliche.
                  > Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.

                  Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that
                  I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                  answers for them. And much of the thinking around this will be of use when
                  I write the methodology chapter of my thesis. :-)

                  In case it shouldn't have had a smiley, looking at the list of sections
                  under the heading "New" Traditionsgeschichtliche Approach


                  1.1 The Historical Contexture of Traditions
                  1.2 The Referential Horizon of Traditions
                  1.3 The Communal Nature of Traditions
                  1.4 The Responsive Nature of Traditions
                  1.5 The Shift of Traditions
                  1.6 Streams of Traditions
                  1.7 Transmission of Traditions

                  it seems likely that DeConick is proposing that there are some particular
                  things that need to be taken into account in Traditionsgeschichte that
                  haven't been looked at so intentionally in the past. I have no memory of
                  seeing a list of things that need to be considered that included all these
                  things. I'm used to much more general statements such as "Tradition
                  criticism (including form criticism) studies how information was passed from
                  one generation to another before it was put in its present form. ...
                  Tradition criticism attempts to trace the stages by which these traditions
                  were handed down, the forms they took at those various stages, and the forms
                  in which they reached the people who committed them to writing."
                  (http://www.shakinandshinin.org/BiblicalCriticism.html) So perhaps the new
                  approach is a more structured and intentional one.

                  We will have to wait until we get copies of the book and see.

                  Judy

                  --
                  " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                  the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                  Rev Judy Redman
                  Uniting Church Chaplain
                  University of New England
                  Armidale 2351
                  ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                  fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                  web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                  email: jredman@...



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Renfro
                  Judy, I ran across a cool word recently that seems appropriate to the topic; Euhemerist , (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if you don t already
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                    Judy,
                    I ran across a "cool" word recently that seems appropriate to
                    the topic; "Euhemerist", (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if
                    you don't already know it.
                    I like it when a single word covers so much ground.
                    Dave Renfro
                  • rhubbard@midmaine.com
                    Hi all! By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche / traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                      Hi all!

                      By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                      traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                      Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                      called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                      (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                      a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                      uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                      Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                      which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                      know ļ:

                      Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                      Naturweisheit
                      Prostaxis
                      Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                      Homoioarchton


                      Rick Hubbard
                      Humble Maine Woodsman
                    • David Renfro
                      Spare me the test, what s the skinny? Keep it woods-z. D.R. rhubbard@midmaine.com wrote: Hi all! ... Here s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                        Spare me the test, what's the skinny? Keep it woods-z.
                        D.R.

                        rhubbard@... wrote:
                        Hi all!
                        ...
                        Here's a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should know :

                        Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                        Naturweisheit
                        Prostaxis
                        Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                        Homoioarchton

                        Rick Hubbard
                        Humble Maine Woodsman
                      • Jacob Knee
                        I think the there is a third edition now in print: Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded) by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 5, 2005
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                          I think the there is a third edition now in print:

                          Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded)

                          by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen


                          Richard Soulen and R. Kendall Soulen have thoroughly revised this
                          comprehensive guide to the basic terms and concepts of biblical criticism.
                          Integrating the newest methods and theories of biblical studies, this third
                          edition contains over 800 terms, phrases, names, explanations of common
                          abbreviations, notes on major methodologies and exegetical basics,
                          biographical sketches of key figures in the history of research, analytical
                          outlines of fundamental critical problems, a list of bibliographic tools,
                          plus an invaluable Diagram of Biblical Interpretation. Everything a student
                          needs for a class in biblical interpretation. Richard N. Soulen is a retired
                          Methodist minister and professor of New Testament at the School of Theology,
                          Virginia Union University. He is also the editor of Care for the Dying:
                          Resources of Theology. R. Kendall Soulen is Professor of Systematic Theology
                          at Wesley Theological Seminary. His publications include The God of Israel
                          and Christian Theology (Fortress, 1996).

                          https://www.ppcbooks.com/Details.asp?BookID=0664223141

                          Best wishes,
                          Jacob

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          rhubbard@...
                          Sent: 04 November 2005 18:56
                          To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [GTh]

                          Hi all!

                          By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                          traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                          Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                          called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                          (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                          a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                          uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                          Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                          which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                          know ļ:

                          Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                          Naturweisheit
                          Prostaxis
                          Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                          Homoioarchton


                          Rick Hubbard
                          Humble Maine Woodsman





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