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Re: [GTh]

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  • Wade Greiner
    ... The book has just come off the printing press and should be available for sale anytime (maybe even now). I know T&T clark will have a couple of display
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 1, 2005
      --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, David Renfro <brain32771@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
      > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
      > Dave Renfro
      >

      The book has just come off the printing press and should be
      available for sale anytime (maybe even now). I know T&T clark will
      have a couple of display copies at SBL where it is getting reviewed
      in a couple of weeks.

      April provided me the table of contents, so here it is (excuse the
      formating problems, if you will):

      "I'm copying the table of contents for the Thomas book. The second
      volume will come out next summer. It will be called The Original
      Gospel of Thomas in Translation, with a commentary and new English
      translation of the complete Gospel.

      RECOVERING THE ORIGINAL GOSPEL OF THOMAS
      A History of the Gospel and Its Growth
      by April D. DeConick

      CONTENTS

      Preface

      PART ONE MAPPING A METHODOLOGY



      Chapter 1
      The "New" Traditionsgeschichtliche Approach


      1.1 The Historical Contexture of Traditions

      1.2 The Referential Horizon of Traditions

      1.3 The Communal Nature of Traditions

      1.4 The Responsive Nature of Traditions

      1.5 The Shift of Traditions

      1.6 Streams of Traditions

      1.7 Transmission of Traditions


      Chapter 2
      The Enigmatic Gospel of
      Thomas


      2.1 Previously Proposed Compositional Models

      2.1.1 Literate Model

      2.1.2 Oral-Literate Model

      2.1.3 Redaction Model

      2.2 The Rolling Corpus Model

      2.2.1 Oral Consciousness

      2.2.2 Multivalency

      2.2.3 Structure



      Chapter 3
      The Rolling Gospel of
      Thomas



      3.1 Principle of Development

      3.1.1 Development of Discourses

      3.1.1.1 Question and Answer Units

      3.1.1.2 Dialogues

      3.1.2 Formation of Interpretative Clauses

      3.1.2.1 Sayings with Interpretative Clauses

      3.1.3 Coherence to Characteristic Vocabulary

      3.1.3.1 Characteristic Vocabulary

      3.1.3.2 Sayings that Cohere to
      Characteristic Vocabulary

      3.1.4 Coherence to Characteristic Themes

      3.1.4.1 Characteristic Themes

      3.1.4.2 Sayings that Cohere to
      Characteristic Themes

      3.1.5 Anachronisms

      3.1.5.1 Anachronistic Sayings

      3.2 Principle of Responsiveness

      3.2.1 Sayings that are Responsive to Christian
      Experiences

      3.2.2 Responses Reflecting General Christian
      Experiences

      3.2.2.1 Death of the Eyewitnesses

      3.2.2.2 The Delay of the Eschaton

      3.2.2.3 Accommodation of Gentile Converts

      3.2.3 Responses Reflecting Particular Community
      Experiences

      3.3 Principle of Constituency

      3.3.1 Shifts in Composition

      3.3.2 Shifts in Hermeneutics

      3.4 A Rolling Corpus

      3.4.1 Chart: Gradual Accrual of Logia

      3.4.2 Chart: Sayings by Attribution


      PART TWO RECOVERING THE KERNEL

      Chapter 4 An Early Christian Speech
      Gospel



      4.1 Five Kernel Speeches

      4.1.1 Speech One: Eschatological Urgency

      4.1.2 Speech Two: Eschatological Challenges of
      Discipleship

      4.1.3 Speech Three: Exclusive Commitment to Jesus

      4.1.4 Speech Four: The Selection of the Worthy Few

      4.1.5 Speech Five: The Imminent Kingdom of God

      4.2 The Prophet-Orator

      4.2.1 The Prophet in Conservative Christian Judaism

      4.2.2 The Prophet in Ebionism



      Chapter 5 The Imminent
      Apocalypse



      5.1 Apocalyptic Expectations in the Kernel Sayings

      5.1.1 The Eschatological and Mystical Dimensions
      of Apocalyptic

      5.1.2 Unprecedented Chaos

      5.1.3 Reversal of World Order

      5.1.4 Destruction of the Temple

      5.1.5 Final Judgment

      5.1.5.1 Selection of the Few

      5.1.5.2 Harvest Motif

      5.1.5.3 Messianic Banquet

      5.1.5.4 Fire of Retribution

      5.2 The Son of Man Tradition

      5.3 The Origin of the Kernel Gospel



      PART THREE ASSESSING THE ACCRETIONS



      Chapter 6
      The Collapse of the Apocalypse



      6.1 An Apocalyptic Memory Crisis

      6.2 A Reconfiguration of Apocalyptic Expectations

      6.2.1 Accretions that Reconfigured Expectations

      6.3 The Hermeneutical Shift



      Chapter 7
      The Restoration of Eden

      7.1 Sexuality in Second Temple Judaism

      7.2 Sexuality in Earliest Christianity

      7.3 Encratism and the Role of Eschatology

      7.4 Encratism and the Role of Protology

      7.5 The Origin of Thomas' Encratism



      Chapter 8
      A Mystical
      Revival

      8.1 The Jewish Mystical Story

      8.1.1 The Heavenly Man of Light

      8.1.2 The Radiant Image and Its Loss

      8.1.3 The Restoration of the Lost Image

      8.2 The Hermetic Story

      8.2.1 The Fallen Soul

      8.2.2 The Recovery of the Soul



      Chapter 9
      The Immanent Apocalypse



      9.1 Thomas' Mysticism

      9.1.1 The Image of God and the Divine Double

      9.1.2 The Fallen Condition of the Soul

      9.1.3 The Path of Liberation

      9.1.4 The Mystical Praxis

      9.1 The Origin of Thomas' Mysticism

      9.2.1 Alexandrian Christian Mysticism

      9.2.2 The Adaptation of the Kernel



      Chapter 10
      Thomas and Christian Origins


      10.1 The Gospel of Thomas Rediscovered

      10.2 Implications for the Study of Christian Origins

      10.3 Final Remark



      Bibliography
    • Judy Redman
      I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark website says
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 1, 2005
        I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research,
        so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark
        website says it will be available in December and will cost $130 US (ouch -
        that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
        offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
        http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
        .aspx?BookID=12360

        The website says the commentary and translation will be available in June
        06. Same price. See
        http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
        .aspx?BookID=13136

        Judy

        --
        " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
        the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

        Rev Judy Redman
        Uniting Church Chaplain
        University of New England
        Armidale 2351
        ph: +61 2 6773 3739
        fax: +61 2 6773 3749
        web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
        email: jredman@...


        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
        > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
        > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [GTh]
        >
        >
        > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
        > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
        > Dave Renfro
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
        > To unsubscribe from this group,
        > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Jacob Knee
        Don t forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount. Still expensive but not
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
          Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars discount if
          you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount.

          Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.

          Best wishes,
          Jacob Knee
          (Cam, Glos.)

          -----Original Message-----
          From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Judy Redman
          Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
          To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [GTh]

          I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research,
          so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark
          website says it will be available in December and will cost $130 US (ouch -
          that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
          offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
          http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
          .aspx?BookID=12360

          The website says the commentary and translation will be available in June
          06. Same price. See
          http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
          .aspx?BookID=13136

          Judy

          --
          " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
          the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

          Rev Judy Redman
          Uniting Church Chaplain
          University of New England
          Armidale 2351
          ph: +61 2 6773 3739
          fax: +61 2 6773 3749
          web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
          email: jredman@...


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
          > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
          > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [GTh]
          >
          >
          > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
          > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
          > Dave Renfro
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
          > To unsubscribe from this group,
          > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >



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          Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
          To unsubscribe from this group,
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          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Judy Redman
          Jacob, Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar? Judy -- Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as the
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
            Jacob,

            Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar?

            Judy

            --
            " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
            the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

            Rev Judy Redman
            Uniting Church Chaplain
            University of New England
            Armidale 2351
            ph: +61 2 6773 3739
            fax: +61 2 6773 3749
            web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
            email: jredman@...


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Knee
            > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 7:45 PM
            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [GTh]
            >
            >
            > Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50%
            > scholars discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the
            > discount.
            >
            > Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            > Jacob Knee
            > (Cam, Glos.)
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Redman
            > Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [GTh]
            >
            > I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful
            > for my research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on
            > the web. The T & T Clark website says it will be available
            > in December and will cost $130 US (ouch - that's $175
            > Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
            > offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
            > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
            > 34)/BookDetail
            > .aspx?BookID=12360
            >
            > The website says the commentary and translation will be
            > available in June 06. Same price. See
            > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
            > 34)/BookDetail
            > .aspx?BookID=13136
            >
            > Judy
            >
            > --
            > " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as
            > vital to us as the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944
            >
            > Rev Judy Redman
            > Uniting Church Chaplain
            > University of New England
            > Armidale 2351
            > ph: +61 2 6773 3739
            > fax: +61 2 6773 3749
            > web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
            > email: jredman@...
            >
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
            > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
            > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [GTh]
            > >
            > >
            > > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
            > > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
            > > Dave Renfro
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
            > > To unsubscribe from this group,
            > > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
            > To unsubscribe from this group,
            > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
            > To unsubscribe from this group,
            > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Jacob Knee
            Asking is all you have to do - they give it to anyone who asks. Best wishes, Jacob ... From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
              Asking is all you have to do - they give it to anyone who asks.

              Best wishes,
              Jacob



              -----Original Message-----
              From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Judy Redman
              Sent: 02 November 2005 09:36
              To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [GTh]

              Jacob,

              Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar?

              Judy

              --
              " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
              the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

              Rev Judy Redman
              Uniting Church Chaplain
              University of New England
              Armidale 2351
              ph: +61 2 6773 3739
              fax: +61 2 6773 3749
              web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
              email: jredman@...


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Knee
              > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 7:45 PM
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [GTh]
              >
              >
              > Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars
              > discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount.
              >
              > Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Jacob Knee
              > (Cam, Glos.)
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Redman
              > Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [GTh]
              >
              > I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my
              > research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T
              > & T Clark website says it will be available in December and will cost
              > $130 US (ouch - that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted
              > here). Amazon is offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
              > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
              > 34)/BookDetail
              > .aspx?BookID=12360
              >
              > The website says the commentary and translation will be available in
              > June 06. Same price. See
              > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
              > 34)/BookDetail
              > .aspx?BookID=13136
              >
              > Judy
              >
              > --
              > " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to
              > us as the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944
              >
              > Rev Judy Redman
              > Uniting Church Chaplain
              > University of New England
              > Armidale 2351
              > ph: +61 2 6773 3739
              > fax: +61 2 6773 3749
              > web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
              > email: jredman@...
              >
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
              > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
              > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [GTh]
              > >
              > >
              > > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
              > > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
              > > Dave Renfro
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > > To unsubscribe from this group,
              > > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > To unsubscribe from this group,
              > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > To unsubscribe from this group,
              > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >



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              To unsubscribe from this group,
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            • David Renfro
              Words like New Traditionsgeschichtliche don t come cheap. D.R.
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
                Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                D.R.
              • Ron McCann
                ... Lol. I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies. Seems she
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
                  At 06:02 AM 11/2/05, David R wrote:
                  > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                  > D.R.

                  Lol.
                  I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                  at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                  Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                  otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                  friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
                  The chapter synopsis seems erudite enough.
                  I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
                  Think I'll wait for some reviews of the book, before I bite.
                  Bit pricy for me.

                  Ron






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                  >To unsubscribe from this group,
                  >send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                • William Arnal
                  ... Aw, c mon. . . . surely we don t need this kind of thing. April deConick is a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the Gospel
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
                    Ron McCann wrote:

                    >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                    >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                    >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                    >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                    >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.

                    Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
                    a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
                    Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
                    other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
                    inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
                    look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
                    whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
                    "lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
                    the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
                    of her arguments, and so forth.

                    >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.

                    This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
                    be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?

                    And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
                    them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
                    approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.

                    regards,
                    Bill
                    ______________________
                    William Arnal
                    University of Regina
                  • Ron McCann
                    Bill, Rebuke taken, and well deserved. Whatever got into me? Ron
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
                      Bill,
                      Rebuke taken, and well deserved.
                      Whatever got into me?

                      Ron
                      At 06:17 PM 11/2/05, you wrote:

                      >Ron McCann wrote:
                      >
                      > >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                      > >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                      > >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                      > >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                      > >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
                      >
                      >Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
                      >a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
                      >Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
                      >other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
                      >inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
                      >look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
                      >whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
                      >"lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
                      >the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
                      >of her arguments, and so forth.
                      >
                      > >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
                      >
                      >This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
                      >be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?
                      >
                      >And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
                      >them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
                      >approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.
                      >
                      >regards,
                      >Bill
                      >______________________
                      >William Arnal
                      >University of Regina
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                      >To unsubscribe from this group,
                      >send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Stephen C. Carlson
                      ... I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate whatever information he can provide about
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
                        At 02:49 PM 11/2/2005 -0600, Ron McCann wrote:
                        >Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                        >friends

                        I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and
                        April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate
                        whatever information he can provide about her new book.

                        Stephen Carlson

                        --
                        Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                        Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                        Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                      • Judy Redman
                        ... Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don t come cheap, unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
                          David writes:
                          >
                          > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                          > D.R.

                          Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don't come cheap,
                          unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
                          rather than paperbacks with lower quality paper, but I buy my hardcovers
                          secondhand whenever I can (I love Abe Books!!) and I often decided that I'll
                          even buy paperbacks secondhand because the information is still the same.

                          I think you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in this kind of
                          field. Use words like "Traditiongeschichtliche" and you get accused of
                          being elitist, obscure etc. Write something that is going to be more
                          readily accessible to the non-specialist reader (like Elaine Pagels' "Beyond
                          Belief") and you get dismissed as writing "theology lite".

                          It's particularly difficult, as Bill suggests, if you happen to be a female
                          scholar, because if you don't use the technical terms, some people are not
                          above suggesting that this is because you don't understand them and that
                          your level of scholarship is pretty low, just like you'd expect of a woman.
                          OTOH, it is also difficult if you are an intelligent, interested 'lay
                          person' ie someone who hasn't had formal university education the field but
                          wants to get beyond "Isn't GThos cool and I just love being a gnostic" and
                          the books you want to read are sprinkled with unexplained technical terms.
                          I suspect that if more people had written theology that was accessible to
                          the intelligent layperson there wouldn't be anywhere near the problem with
                          Christian fundamentalism that I see today.

                          I've just spent half an hour trying to work out how to translate
                          "Traditionsgeschichtliche" neatly but helpfully into English (hampered by
                          having my theological German dictionary at work, admittedly) and haven't
                          come up with anything all that wonderful. I guess Tradition Critical, but I
                          have never found the term Biblical Criticism or its variants particularly
                          helpful. No matter how many times I assure myself that criticism in this
                          sense means 'careful analytical study of' rather than 'articulating in
                          minute detail how wrong something is', I still need to do a double take
                          every time I see the term.

                          I've found DeConick's other works helpful and scholarly and this table of
                          contents looks as though it will come up to the same standard.

                          Judy

                          --
                          " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                          the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                          Rev Judy Redman
                          Uniting Church Chaplain
                          University of New England
                          Armidale 2351
                          ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                          fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                          web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                          email: jredman@...


                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
                          > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 11:03 PM
                          > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                          >
                          >
                          > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                          > D.R.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
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                        • David Renfro
                          I wish I d put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0). This is a tough crowd, y all make the Gnostic s look like Party-animals. I ve been anticipating this
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
                            I wish I'd put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0).
                            This is a tough crowd, y'all make the Gnostic's look like
                            Party-animals.
                            I've been anticipating this book for months and will eventually
                            come off the money for the hard cover; I like books.
                            Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                            "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any traditionsgeschichtliche.
                            Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.
                            Answers.com gave me this.
                            David Renfro

                            Re: orion-list War Scroll and Cargo cults
                            P. von der Osten-Sacken, Gott und Belial: Traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen
                            zum Dualismus in den Texten aus Qumran (Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht: Göttingen, ...
                            orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/ archives/2000b/msg00207.html

                            NT-genre
                            For the missionary speech in general see Ulrich Wilckens, Die Missionsrede der
                            Apostelgeschichte: Form- und traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen, 2nd ed. ...
                            www.cranfordville.com/NT-genre.htm
                          • Judy Redman
                            ... Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
                              David writes:

                              > Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                              > "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any
                              > traditionsgeschichtliche.
                              > Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.

                              Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that
                              I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                              answers for them. And much of the thinking around this will be of use when
                              I write the methodology chapter of my thesis. :-)

                              In case it shouldn't have had a smiley, looking at the list of sections
                              under the heading "New" Traditionsgeschichtliche Approach


                              1.1 The Historical Contexture of Traditions
                              1.2 The Referential Horizon of Traditions
                              1.3 The Communal Nature of Traditions
                              1.4 The Responsive Nature of Traditions
                              1.5 The Shift of Traditions
                              1.6 Streams of Traditions
                              1.7 Transmission of Traditions

                              it seems likely that DeConick is proposing that there are some particular
                              things that need to be taken into account in Traditionsgeschichte that
                              haven't been looked at so intentionally in the past. I have no memory of
                              seeing a list of things that need to be considered that included all these
                              things. I'm used to much more general statements such as "Tradition
                              criticism (including form criticism) studies how information was passed from
                              one generation to another before it was put in its present form. ...
                              Tradition criticism attempts to trace the stages by which these traditions
                              were handed down, the forms they took at those various stages, and the forms
                              in which they reached the people who committed them to writing."
                              (http://www.shakinandshinin.org/BiblicalCriticism.html) So perhaps the new
                              approach is a more structured and intentional one.

                              We will have to wait until we get copies of the book and see.

                              Judy

                              --
                              " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                              the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                              Rev Judy Redman
                              Uniting Church Chaplain
                              University of New England
                              Armidale 2351
                              ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                              fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                              web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                              email: jredman@...



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Renfro
                              Judy, I ran across a cool word recently that seems appropriate to the topic; Euhemerist , (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if you don t already
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
                                Judy,
                                I ran across a "cool" word recently that seems appropriate to
                                the topic; "Euhemerist", (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if
                                you don't already know it.
                                I like it when a single word covers so much ground.
                                Dave Renfro
                              • rhubbard@midmaine.com
                                Hi all! By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche / traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
                                  Hi all!

                                  By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                                  traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                  Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                                  called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                                  (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                                  a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                                  uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                                  Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                                  which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                                  know ļ:

                                  Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                  Naturweisheit
                                  Prostaxis
                                  Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                  Homoioarchton


                                  Rick Hubbard
                                  Humble Maine Woodsman
                                • David Renfro
                                  Spare me the test, what s the skinny? Keep it woods-z. D.R. rhubbard@midmaine.com wrote: Hi all! ... Here s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
                                    Spare me the test, what's the skinny? Keep it woods-z.
                                    D.R.

                                    rhubbard@... wrote:
                                    Hi all!
                                    ...
                                    Here's a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should know :

                                    Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                    Naturweisheit
                                    Prostaxis
                                    Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                    Homoioarchton

                                    Rick Hubbard
                                    Humble Maine Woodsman
                                  • Jacob Knee
                                    I think the there is a third edition now in print: Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded) by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 5, 2005
                                      I think the there is a third edition now in print:

                                      Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded)

                                      by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen


                                      Richard Soulen and R. Kendall Soulen have thoroughly revised this
                                      comprehensive guide to the basic terms and concepts of biblical criticism.
                                      Integrating the newest methods and theories of biblical studies, this third
                                      edition contains over 800 terms, phrases, names, explanations of common
                                      abbreviations, notes on major methodologies and exegetical basics,
                                      biographical sketches of key figures in the history of research, analytical
                                      outlines of fundamental critical problems, a list of bibliographic tools,
                                      plus an invaluable Diagram of Biblical Interpretation. Everything a student
                                      needs for a class in biblical interpretation. Richard N. Soulen is a retired
                                      Methodist minister and professor of New Testament at the School of Theology,
                                      Virginia Union University. He is also the editor of Care for the Dying:
                                      Resources of Theology. R. Kendall Soulen is Professor of Systematic Theology
                                      at Wesley Theological Seminary. His publications include The God of Israel
                                      and Christian Theology (Fortress, 1996).

                                      https://www.ppcbooks.com/Details.asp?BookID=0664223141

                                      Best wishes,
                                      Jacob

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                      rhubbard@...
                                      Sent: 04 November 2005 18:56
                                      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [GTh]

                                      Hi all!

                                      By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                                      traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                      Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                                      called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                                      (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                                      a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                                      uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                                      Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                                      which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                                      know ļ:

                                      Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                      Naturweisheit
                                      Prostaxis
                                      Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                      Homoioarchton


                                      Rick Hubbard
                                      Humble Maine Woodsman





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