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Re: [GTh]

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  • David Renfro
    Does anyone know anything about April DeConick s book on the Kernel Text in GoTh? Dave Renfro
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 31, 2005
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      Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
      the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
      Dave Renfro
    • Wade Greiner
      ... The book has just come off the printing press and should be available for sale anytime (maybe even now). I know T&T clark will have a couple of display
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 1, 2005
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        --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, David Renfro <brain32771@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
        > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
        > Dave Renfro
        >

        The book has just come off the printing press and should be
        available for sale anytime (maybe even now). I know T&T clark will
        have a couple of display copies at SBL where it is getting reviewed
        in a couple of weeks.

        April provided me the table of contents, so here it is (excuse the
        formating problems, if you will):

        "I'm copying the table of contents for the Thomas book. The second
        volume will come out next summer. It will be called The Original
        Gospel of Thomas in Translation, with a commentary and new English
        translation of the complete Gospel.

        RECOVERING THE ORIGINAL GOSPEL OF THOMAS
        A History of the Gospel and Its Growth
        by April D. DeConick

        CONTENTS

        Preface

        PART ONE MAPPING A METHODOLOGY



        Chapter 1
        The "New" Traditionsgeschichtliche Approach


        1.1 The Historical Contexture of Traditions

        1.2 The Referential Horizon of Traditions

        1.3 The Communal Nature of Traditions

        1.4 The Responsive Nature of Traditions

        1.5 The Shift of Traditions

        1.6 Streams of Traditions

        1.7 Transmission of Traditions


        Chapter 2
        The Enigmatic Gospel of
        Thomas


        2.1 Previously Proposed Compositional Models

        2.1.1 Literate Model

        2.1.2 Oral-Literate Model

        2.1.3 Redaction Model

        2.2 The Rolling Corpus Model

        2.2.1 Oral Consciousness

        2.2.2 Multivalency

        2.2.3 Structure



        Chapter 3
        The Rolling Gospel of
        Thomas



        3.1 Principle of Development

        3.1.1 Development of Discourses

        3.1.1.1 Question and Answer Units

        3.1.1.2 Dialogues

        3.1.2 Formation of Interpretative Clauses

        3.1.2.1 Sayings with Interpretative Clauses

        3.1.3 Coherence to Characteristic Vocabulary

        3.1.3.1 Characteristic Vocabulary

        3.1.3.2 Sayings that Cohere to
        Characteristic Vocabulary

        3.1.4 Coherence to Characteristic Themes

        3.1.4.1 Characteristic Themes

        3.1.4.2 Sayings that Cohere to
        Characteristic Themes

        3.1.5 Anachronisms

        3.1.5.1 Anachronistic Sayings

        3.2 Principle of Responsiveness

        3.2.1 Sayings that are Responsive to Christian
        Experiences

        3.2.2 Responses Reflecting General Christian
        Experiences

        3.2.2.1 Death of the Eyewitnesses

        3.2.2.2 The Delay of the Eschaton

        3.2.2.3 Accommodation of Gentile Converts

        3.2.3 Responses Reflecting Particular Community
        Experiences

        3.3 Principle of Constituency

        3.3.1 Shifts in Composition

        3.3.2 Shifts in Hermeneutics

        3.4 A Rolling Corpus

        3.4.1 Chart: Gradual Accrual of Logia

        3.4.2 Chart: Sayings by Attribution


        PART TWO RECOVERING THE KERNEL

        Chapter 4 An Early Christian Speech
        Gospel



        4.1 Five Kernel Speeches

        4.1.1 Speech One: Eschatological Urgency

        4.1.2 Speech Two: Eschatological Challenges of
        Discipleship

        4.1.3 Speech Three: Exclusive Commitment to Jesus

        4.1.4 Speech Four: The Selection of the Worthy Few

        4.1.5 Speech Five: The Imminent Kingdom of God

        4.2 The Prophet-Orator

        4.2.1 The Prophet in Conservative Christian Judaism

        4.2.2 The Prophet in Ebionism



        Chapter 5 The Imminent
        Apocalypse



        5.1 Apocalyptic Expectations in the Kernel Sayings

        5.1.1 The Eschatological and Mystical Dimensions
        of Apocalyptic

        5.1.2 Unprecedented Chaos

        5.1.3 Reversal of World Order

        5.1.4 Destruction of the Temple

        5.1.5 Final Judgment

        5.1.5.1 Selection of the Few

        5.1.5.2 Harvest Motif

        5.1.5.3 Messianic Banquet

        5.1.5.4 Fire of Retribution

        5.2 The Son of Man Tradition

        5.3 The Origin of the Kernel Gospel



        PART THREE ASSESSING THE ACCRETIONS



        Chapter 6
        The Collapse of the Apocalypse



        6.1 An Apocalyptic Memory Crisis

        6.2 A Reconfiguration of Apocalyptic Expectations

        6.2.1 Accretions that Reconfigured Expectations

        6.3 The Hermeneutical Shift



        Chapter 7
        The Restoration of Eden

        7.1 Sexuality in Second Temple Judaism

        7.2 Sexuality in Earliest Christianity

        7.3 Encratism and the Role of Eschatology

        7.4 Encratism and the Role of Protology

        7.5 The Origin of Thomas' Encratism



        Chapter 8
        A Mystical
        Revival

        8.1 The Jewish Mystical Story

        8.1.1 The Heavenly Man of Light

        8.1.2 The Radiant Image and Its Loss

        8.1.3 The Restoration of the Lost Image

        8.2 The Hermetic Story

        8.2.1 The Fallen Soul

        8.2.2 The Recovery of the Soul



        Chapter 9
        The Immanent Apocalypse



        9.1 Thomas' Mysticism

        9.1.1 The Image of God and the Divine Double

        9.1.2 The Fallen Condition of the Soul

        9.1.3 The Path of Liberation

        9.1.4 The Mystical Praxis

        9.1 The Origin of Thomas' Mysticism

        9.2.1 Alexandrian Christian Mysticism

        9.2.2 The Adaptation of the Kernel



        Chapter 10
        Thomas and Christian Origins


        10.1 The Gospel of Thomas Rediscovered

        10.2 Implications for the Study of Christian Origins

        10.3 Final Remark



        Bibliography
      • Judy Redman
        I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark website says
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 1, 2005
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          I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research,
          so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark
          website says it will be available in December and will cost $130 US (ouch -
          that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
          offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
          http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
          .aspx?BookID=12360

          The website says the commentary and translation will be available in June
          06. Same price. See
          http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
          .aspx?BookID=13136

          Judy

          --
          " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
          the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

          Rev Judy Redman
          Uniting Church Chaplain
          University of New England
          Armidale 2351
          ph: +61 2 6773 3739
          fax: +61 2 6773 3749
          web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
          email: jredman@...


          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
          > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
          > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [GTh]
          >
          >
          > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
          > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
          > Dave Renfro
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
          > To unsubscribe from this group,
          > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Jacob Knee
          Don t forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount. Still expensive but not
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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            Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars discount if
            you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount.

            Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.

            Best wishes,
            Jacob Knee
            (Cam, Glos.)

            -----Original Message-----
            From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Judy Redman
            Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
            To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [GTh]

            I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research,
            so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark
            website says it will be available in December and will cost $130 US (ouch -
            that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
            offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
            http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
            .aspx?BookID=12360

            The website says the commentary and translation will be available in June
            06. Same price. See
            http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
            .aspx?BookID=13136

            Judy

            --
            " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
            the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

            Rev Judy Redman
            Uniting Church Chaplain
            University of New England
            Armidale 2351
            ph: +61 2 6773 3739
            fax: +61 2 6773 3749
            web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
            email: jredman@...


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
            > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [GTh]
            >
            >
            > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
            > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
            > Dave Renfro
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
            > To unsubscribe from this group,
            > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >



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            To unsubscribe from this group,
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          • Judy Redman
            Jacob, Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar? Judy -- Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as the
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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              Jacob,

              Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar?

              Judy

              --
              " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
              the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

              Rev Judy Redman
              Uniting Church Chaplain
              University of New England
              Armidale 2351
              ph: +61 2 6773 3739
              fax: +61 2 6773 3749
              web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
              email: jredman@...


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Knee
              > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 7:45 PM
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [GTh]
              >
              >
              > Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50%
              > scholars discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the
              > discount.
              >
              > Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Jacob Knee
              > (Cam, Glos.)
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Redman
              > Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [GTh]
              >
              > I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful
              > for my research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on
              > the web. The T & T Clark website says it will be available
              > in December and will cost $130 US (ouch - that's $175
              > Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
              > offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
              > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
              > 34)/BookDetail
              > .aspx?BookID=12360
              >
              > The website says the commentary and translation will be
              > available in June 06. Same price. See
              > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
              > 34)/BookDetail
              > .aspx?BookID=13136
              >
              > Judy
              >
              > --
              > " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as
              > vital to us as the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944
              >
              > Rev Judy Redman
              > Uniting Church Chaplain
              > University of New England
              > Armidale 2351
              > ph: +61 2 6773 3739
              > fax: +61 2 6773 3749
              > web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
              > email: jredman@...
              >
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
              > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
              > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [GTh]
              > >
              > >
              > > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
              > > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
              > > Dave Renfro
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > > To unsubscribe from this group,
              > > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > To unsubscribe from this group,
              > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > To unsubscribe from this group,
              > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
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              >
              >
              >
            • Jacob Knee
              Asking is all you have to do - they give it to anyone who asks. Best wishes, Jacob ... From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                Asking is all you have to do - they give it to anyone who asks.

                Best wishes,
                Jacob



                -----Original Message-----
                From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Judy Redman
                Sent: 02 November 2005 09:36
                To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [GTh]

                Jacob,

                Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar?

                Judy

                --
                " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                Rev Judy Redman
                Uniting Church Chaplain
                University of New England
                Armidale 2351
                ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                email: jredman@...


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Knee
                > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 7:45 PM
                > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                >
                >
                > Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars
                > discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount.
                >
                > Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.
                >
                > Best wishes,
                > Jacob Knee
                > (Cam, Glos.)
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Redman
                > Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
                > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                >
                > I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my
                > research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T
                > & T Clark website says it will be available in December and will cost
                > $130 US (ouch - that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted
                > here). Amazon is offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
                > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
                > 34)/BookDetail
                > .aspx?BookID=12360
                >
                > The website says the commentary and translation will be available in
                > June 06. Same price. See
                > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
                > 34)/BookDetail
                > .aspx?BookID=13136
                >
                > Judy
                >
                > --
                > " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to
                > us as the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944
                >
                > Rev Judy Redman
                > Uniting Church Chaplain
                > University of New England
                > Armidale 2351
                > ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                > fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                > web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                > email: jredman@...
                >
                >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
                > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
                > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [GTh]
                > >
                > >
                > > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
                > > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
                > > Dave Renfro
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                > > To unsubscribe from this group,
                > > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                > To unsubscribe from this group,
                > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                > To unsubscribe from this group,
                > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >



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              • David Renfro
                Words like New Traditionsgeschichtliche don t come cheap. D.R.
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                  Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                  D.R.
                • Ron McCann
                  ... Lol. I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies. Seems she
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                    At 06:02 AM 11/2/05, David R wrote:
                    > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                    > D.R.

                    Lol.
                    I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                    at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                    Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                    otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                    friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
                    The chapter synopsis seems erudite enough.
                    I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
                    Think I'll wait for some reviews of the book, before I bite.
                    Bit pricy for me.

                    Ron






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                  • William Arnal
                    ... Aw, c mon. . . . surely we don t need this kind of thing. April deConick is a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the Gospel
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                      Ron McCann wrote:

                      >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                      >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                      >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                      >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                      >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.

                      Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
                      a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
                      Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
                      other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
                      inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
                      look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
                      whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
                      "lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
                      the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
                      of her arguments, and so forth.

                      >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.

                      This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
                      be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?

                      And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
                      them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
                      approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.

                      regards,
                      Bill
                      ______________________
                      William Arnal
                      University of Regina
                    • Ron McCann
                      Bill, Rebuke taken, and well deserved. Whatever got into me? Ron
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                        Bill,
                        Rebuke taken, and well deserved.
                        Whatever got into me?

                        Ron
                        At 06:17 PM 11/2/05, you wrote:

                        >Ron McCann wrote:
                        >
                        > >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                        > >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                        > >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                        > >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                        > >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
                        >
                        >Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
                        >a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
                        >Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
                        >other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
                        >inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
                        >look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
                        >whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
                        >"lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
                        >the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
                        >of her arguments, and so forth.
                        >
                        > >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
                        >
                        >This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
                        >be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?
                        >
                        >And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
                        >them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
                        >approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.
                        >
                        >regards,
                        >Bill
                        >______________________
                        >William Arnal
                        >University of Regina
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >To unsubscribe from this group,
                        >send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        >
                      • Stephen C. Carlson
                        ... I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate whatever information he can provide about
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                          At 02:49 PM 11/2/2005 -0600, Ron McCann wrote:
                          >Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                          >friends

                          I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and
                          April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate
                          whatever information he can provide about her new book.

                          Stephen Carlson

                          --
                          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                          Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                          Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                        • Judy Redman
                          ... Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don t come cheap, unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
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                            David writes:
                            >
                            > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                            > D.R.

                            Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don't come cheap,
                            unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
                            rather than paperbacks with lower quality paper, but I buy my hardcovers
                            secondhand whenever I can (I love Abe Books!!) and I often decided that I'll
                            even buy paperbacks secondhand because the information is still the same.

                            I think you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in this kind of
                            field. Use words like "Traditiongeschichtliche" and you get accused of
                            being elitist, obscure etc. Write something that is going to be more
                            readily accessible to the non-specialist reader (like Elaine Pagels' "Beyond
                            Belief") and you get dismissed as writing "theology lite".

                            It's particularly difficult, as Bill suggests, if you happen to be a female
                            scholar, because if you don't use the technical terms, some people are not
                            above suggesting that this is because you don't understand them and that
                            your level of scholarship is pretty low, just like you'd expect of a woman.
                            OTOH, it is also difficult if you are an intelligent, interested 'lay
                            person' ie someone who hasn't had formal university education the field but
                            wants to get beyond "Isn't GThos cool and I just love being a gnostic" and
                            the books you want to read are sprinkled with unexplained technical terms.
                            I suspect that if more people had written theology that was accessible to
                            the intelligent layperson there wouldn't be anywhere near the problem with
                            Christian fundamentalism that I see today.

                            I've just spent half an hour trying to work out how to translate
                            "Traditionsgeschichtliche" neatly but helpfully into English (hampered by
                            having my theological German dictionary at work, admittedly) and haven't
                            come up with anything all that wonderful. I guess Tradition Critical, but I
                            have never found the term Biblical Criticism or its variants particularly
                            helpful. No matter how many times I assure myself that criticism in this
                            sense means 'careful analytical study of' rather than 'articulating in
                            minute detail how wrong something is', I still need to do a double take
                            every time I see the term.

                            I've found DeConick's other works helpful and scholarly and this table of
                            contents looks as though it will come up to the same standard.

                            Judy

                            --
                            " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                            the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                            Rev Judy Redman
                            Uniting Church Chaplain
                            University of New England
                            Armidale 2351
                            ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                            fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                            web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                            email: jredman@...


                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
                            > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 11:03 PM
                            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                            >
                            >
                            > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                            > D.R.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
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                          • David Renfro
                            I wish I d put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0). This is a tough crowd, y all make the Gnostic s look like Party-animals. I ve been anticipating this
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
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                              I wish I'd put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0).
                              This is a tough crowd, y'all make the Gnostic's look like
                              Party-animals.
                              I've been anticipating this book for months and will eventually
                              come off the money for the hard cover; I like books.
                              Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                              "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any traditionsgeschichtliche.
                              Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.
                              Answers.com gave me this.
                              David Renfro

                              Re: orion-list War Scroll and Cargo cults
                              P. von der Osten-Sacken, Gott und Belial: Traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen
                              zum Dualismus in den Texten aus Qumran (Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht: Göttingen, ...
                              orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/ archives/2000b/msg00207.html

                              NT-genre
                              For the missionary speech in general see Ulrich Wilckens, Die Missionsrede der
                              Apostelgeschichte: Form- und traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen, 2nd ed. ...
                              www.cranfordville.com/NT-genre.htm
                            • Judy Redman
                              ... Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                David writes:

                                > Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                                > "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any
                                > traditionsgeschichtliche.
                                > Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.

                                Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that
                                I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                                answers for them. And much of the thinking around this will be of use when
                                I write the methodology chapter of my thesis. :-)

                                In case it shouldn't have had a smiley, looking at the list of sections
                                under the heading "New" Traditionsgeschichtliche Approach


                                1.1 The Historical Contexture of Traditions
                                1.2 The Referential Horizon of Traditions
                                1.3 The Communal Nature of Traditions
                                1.4 The Responsive Nature of Traditions
                                1.5 The Shift of Traditions
                                1.6 Streams of Traditions
                                1.7 Transmission of Traditions

                                it seems likely that DeConick is proposing that there are some particular
                                things that need to be taken into account in Traditionsgeschichte that
                                haven't been looked at so intentionally in the past. I have no memory of
                                seeing a list of things that need to be considered that included all these
                                things. I'm used to much more general statements such as "Tradition
                                criticism (including form criticism) studies how information was passed from
                                one generation to another before it was put in its present form. ...
                                Tradition criticism attempts to trace the stages by which these traditions
                                were handed down, the forms they took at those various stages, and the forms
                                in which they reached the people who committed them to writing."
                                (http://www.shakinandshinin.org/BiblicalCriticism.html) So perhaps the new
                                approach is a more structured and intentional one.

                                We will have to wait until we get copies of the book and see.

                                Judy

                                --
                                " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                                the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                                Rev Judy Redman
                                Uniting Church Chaplain
                                University of New England
                                Armidale 2351
                                ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                                fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                                web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                                email: jredman@...



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • David Renfro
                                Judy, I ran across a cool word recently that seems appropriate to the topic; Euhemerist , (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if you don t already
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                  Judy,
                                  I ran across a "cool" word recently that seems appropriate to
                                  the topic; "Euhemerist", (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if
                                  you don't already know it.
                                  I like it when a single word covers so much ground.
                                  Dave Renfro
                                • rhubbard@midmaine.com
                                  Hi all! By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche / traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                    Hi all!

                                    By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                                    traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                    Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                                    called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                                    (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                                    a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                                    uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                                    Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                                    which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                                    know ļ:

                                    Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                    Naturweisheit
                                    Prostaxis
                                    Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                    Homoioarchton


                                    Rick Hubbard
                                    Humble Maine Woodsman
                                  • David Renfro
                                    Spare me the test, what s the skinny? Keep it woods-z. D.R. rhubbard@midmaine.com wrote: Hi all! ... Here s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                      Spare me the test, what's the skinny? Keep it woods-z.
                                      D.R.

                                      rhubbard@... wrote:
                                      Hi all!
                                      ...
                                      Here's a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should know :

                                      Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                      Naturweisheit
                                      Prostaxis
                                      Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                      Homoioarchton

                                      Rick Hubbard
                                      Humble Maine Woodsman
                                    • Jacob Knee
                                      I think the there is a third edition now in print: Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded) by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 5, 2005
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                                        I think the there is a third edition now in print:

                                        Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded)

                                        by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen


                                        Richard Soulen and R. Kendall Soulen have thoroughly revised this
                                        comprehensive guide to the basic terms and concepts of biblical criticism.
                                        Integrating the newest methods and theories of biblical studies, this third
                                        edition contains over 800 terms, phrases, names, explanations of common
                                        abbreviations, notes on major methodologies and exegetical basics,
                                        biographical sketches of key figures in the history of research, analytical
                                        outlines of fundamental critical problems, a list of bibliographic tools,
                                        plus an invaluable Diagram of Biblical Interpretation. Everything a student
                                        needs for a class in biblical interpretation. Richard N. Soulen is a retired
                                        Methodist minister and professor of New Testament at the School of Theology,
                                        Virginia Union University. He is also the editor of Care for the Dying:
                                        Resources of Theology. R. Kendall Soulen is Professor of Systematic Theology
                                        at Wesley Theological Seminary. His publications include The God of Israel
                                        and Christian Theology (Fortress, 1996).

                                        https://www.ppcbooks.com/Details.asp?BookID=0664223141

                                        Best wishes,
                                        Jacob

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                        rhubbard@...
                                        Sent: 04 November 2005 18:56
                                        To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [GTh]

                                        Hi all!

                                        By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                                        traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                        Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                                        called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                                        (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                                        a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                                        uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                                        Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                                        which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                                        know ļ:

                                        Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                        Naturweisheit
                                        Prostaxis
                                        Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                        Homoioarchton


                                        Rick Hubbard
                                        Humble Maine Woodsman





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