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  • Jacob Knee
    Should probably add, if you hadn t guessed from the libraries only price, that it s to be published by Brill. ... From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 31, 2005
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      Should probably add, if you hadn't guessed from the 'libraries only' price,
      that it's to be published by Brill.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Jacob Knee
      Sent: 31 October 2005 16:28
      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [GTh]

      May to be interest - to be released Feb. 2006.

      Thomasine Traditions in Antiquity
      The Social and Cultural World of the Gospel of Thomas
      Edited by Jon Ma. Asgeirsson, April D. DeConick and Risto Uro
      . February 2006
      . ISBN 90 04 14779 9
      . Hardback (320 pp. with Greek, Coptic, Hebrew texts)
      . List price EUR 95.- / US$ 128.-
      . Nag Hammadi and Manichaean Studies, 59

      Best wishes,
      Jacob Knee
      (Cam, Glos.)
    • David Renfro
      Does anyone know anything about April DeConick s book on the Kernel Text in GoTh? Dave Renfro
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 31, 2005
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        Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
        the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
        Dave Renfro
      • Wade Greiner
        ... The book has just come off the printing press and should be available for sale anytime (maybe even now). I know T&T clark will have a couple of display
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 1, 2005
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          --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, David Renfro <brain32771@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
          > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
          > Dave Renfro
          >

          The book has just come off the printing press and should be
          available for sale anytime (maybe even now). I know T&T clark will
          have a couple of display copies at SBL where it is getting reviewed
          in a couple of weeks.

          April provided me the table of contents, so here it is (excuse the
          formating problems, if you will):

          "I'm copying the table of contents for the Thomas book. The second
          volume will come out next summer. It will be called The Original
          Gospel of Thomas in Translation, with a commentary and new English
          translation of the complete Gospel.

          RECOVERING THE ORIGINAL GOSPEL OF THOMAS
          A History of the Gospel and Its Growth
          by April D. DeConick

          CONTENTS

          Preface

          PART ONE MAPPING A METHODOLOGY



          Chapter 1
          The "New" Traditionsgeschichtliche Approach


          1.1 The Historical Contexture of Traditions

          1.2 The Referential Horizon of Traditions

          1.3 The Communal Nature of Traditions

          1.4 The Responsive Nature of Traditions

          1.5 The Shift of Traditions

          1.6 Streams of Traditions

          1.7 Transmission of Traditions


          Chapter 2
          The Enigmatic Gospel of
          Thomas


          2.1 Previously Proposed Compositional Models

          2.1.1 Literate Model

          2.1.2 Oral-Literate Model

          2.1.3 Redaction Model

          2.2 The Rolling Corpus Model

          2.2.1 Oral Consciousness

          2.2.2 Multivalency

          2.2.3 Structure



          Chapter 3
          The Rolling Gospel of
          Thomas



          3.1 Principle of Development

          3.1.1 Development of Discourses

          3.1.1.1 Question and Answer Units

          3.1.1.2 Dialogues

          3.1.2 Formation of Interpretative Clauses

          3.1.2.1 Sayings with Interpretative Clauses

          3.1.3 Coherence to Characteristic Vocabulary

          3.1.3.1 Characteristic Vocabulary

          3.1.3.2 Sayings that Cohere to
          Characteristic Vocabulary

          3.1.4 Coherence to Characteristic Themes

          3.1.4.1 Characteristic Themes

          3.1.4.2 Sayings that Cohere to
          Characteristic Themes

          3.1.5 Anachronisms

          3.1.5.1 Anachronistic Sayings

          3.2 Principle of Responsiveness

          3.2.1 Sayings that are Responsive to Christian
          Experiences

          3.2.2 Responses Reflecting General Christian
          Experiences

          3.2.2.1 Death of the Eyewitnesses

          3.2.2.2 The Delay of the Eschaton

          3.2.2.3 Accommodation of Gentile Converts

          3.2.3 Responses Reflecting Particular Community
          Experiences

          3.3 Principle of Constituency

          3.3.1 Shifts in Composition

          3.3.2 Shifts in Hermeneutics

          3.4 A Rolling Corpus

          3.4.1 Chart: Gradual Accrual of Logia

          3.4.2 Chart: Sayings by Attribution


          PART TWO RECOVERING THE KERNEL

          Chapter 4 An Early Christian Speech
          Gospel



          4.1 Five Kernel Speeches

          4.1.1 Speech One: Eschatological Urgency

          4.1.2 Speech Two: Eschatological Challenges of
          Discipleship

          4.1.3 Speech Three: Exclusive Commitment to Jesus

          4.1.4 Speech Four: The Selection of the Worthy Few

          4.1.5 Speech Five: The Imminent Kingdom of God

          4.2 The Prophet-Orator

          4.2.1 The Prophet in Conservative Christian Judaism

          4.2.2 The Prophet in Ebionism



          Chapter 5 The Imminent
          Apocalypse



          5.1 Apocalyptic Expectations in the Kernel Sayings

          5.1.1 The Eschatological and Mystical Dimensions
          of Apocalyptic

          5.1.2 Unprecedented Chaos

          5.1.3 Reversal of World Order

          5.1.4 Destruction of the Temple

          5.1.5 Final Judgment

          5.1.5.1 Selection of the Few

          5.1.5.2 Harvest Motif

          5.1.5.3 Messianic Banquet

          5.1.5.4 Fire of Retribution

          5.2 The Son of Man Tradition

          5.3 The Origin of the Kernel Gospel



          PART THREE ASSESSING THE ACCRETIONS



          Chapter 6
          The Collapse of the Apocalypse



          6.1 An Apocalyptic Memory Crisis

          6.2 A Reconfiguration of Apocalyptic Expectations

          6.2.1 Accretions that Reconfigured Expectations

          6.3 The Hermeneutical Shift



          Chapter 7
          The Restoration of Eden

          7.1 Sexuality in Second Temple Judaism

          7.2 Sexuality in Earliest Christianity

          7.3 Encratism and the Role of Eschatology

          7.4 Encratism and the Role of Protology

          7.5 The Origin of Thomas' Encratism



          Chapter 8
          A Mystical
          Revival

          8.1 The Jewish Mystical Story

          8.1.1 The Heavenly Man of Light

          8.1.2 The Radiant Image and Its Loss

          8.1.3 The Restoration of the Lost Image

          8.2 The Hermetic Story

          8.2.1 The Fallen Soul

          8.2.2 The Recovery of the Soul



          Chapter 9
          The Immanent Apocalypse



          9.1 Thomas' Mysticism

          9.1.1 The Image of God and the Divine Double

          9.1.2 The Fallen Condition of the Soul

          9.1.3 The Path of Liberation

          9.1.4 The Mystical Praxis

          9.1 The Origin of Thomas' Mysticism

          9.2.1 Alexandrian Christian Mysticism

          9.2.2 The Adaptation of the Kernel



          Chapter 10
          Thomas and Christian Origins


          10.1 The Gospel of Thomas Rediscovered

          10.2 Implications for the Study of Christian Origins

          10.3 Final Remark



          Bibliography
        • Judy Redman
          I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark website says
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 1, 2005
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            I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research,
            so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark
            website says it will be available in December and will cost $130 US (ouch -
            that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
            offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
            http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
            .aspx?BookID=12360

            The website says the commentary and translation will be available in June
            06. Same price. See
            http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
            .aspx?BookID=13136

            Judy

            --
            " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
            the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

            Rev Judy Redman
            Uniting Church Chaplain
            University of New England
            Armidale 2351
            ph: +61 2 6773 3739
            fax: +61 2 6773 3749
            web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
            email: jredman@...


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
            > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
            > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [GTh]
            >
            >
            > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
            > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
            > Dave Renfro
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
            > To unsubscribe from this group,
            > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Jacob Knee
            Don t forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount. Still expensive but not
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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              Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars discount if
              you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount.

              Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.

              Best wishes,
              Jacob Knee
              (Cam, Glos.)

              -----Original Message-----
              From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Judy Redman
              Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
              To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [GTh]

              I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my research,
              so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T & T Clark
              website says it will be available in December and will cost $130 US (ouch -
              that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
              offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
              http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
              .aspx?BookID=12360

              The website says the commentary and translation will be available in June
              06. Same price. See
              http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js34)/BookDetail
              .aspx?BookID=13136

              Judy

              --
              " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
              the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

              Rev Judy Redman
              Uniting Church Chaplain
              University of New England
              Armidale 2351
              ph: +61 2 6773 3739
              fax: +61 2 6773 3749
              web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
              email: jredman@...


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
              > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [GTh]
              >
              >
              > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
              > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
              > Dave Renfro
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              > To unsubscribe from this group,
              > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >



              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
              To unsubscribe from this group,
              send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Judy Redman
              Jacob, Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar? Judy -- Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as the
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                Jacob,

                Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar?

                Judy

                --
                " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                Rev Judy Redman
                Uniting Church Chaplain
                University of New England
                Armidale 2351
                ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                email: jredman@...


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Knee
                > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 7:45 PM
                > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                >
                >
                > Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50%
                > scholars discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the
                > discount.
                >
                > Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.
                >
                > Best wishes,
                > Jacob Knee
                > (Cam, Glos.)
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Redman
                > Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
                > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                >
                > I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful
                > for my research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on
                > the web. The T & T Clark website says it will be available
                > in December and will cost $130 US (ouch - that's $175
                > Australian by the time I get it posted here). Amazon is
                > offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
                > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
                > 34)/BookDetail
                > .aspx?BookID=12360
                >
                > The website says the commentary and translation will be
                > available in June 06. Same price. See
                > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
                > 34)/BookDetail
                > .aspx?BookID=13136
                >
                > Judy
                >
                > --
                > " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as
                > vital to us as the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944
                >
                > Rev Judy Redman
                > Uniting Church Chaplain
                > University of New England
                > Armidale 2351
                > ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                > fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                > web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                > email: jredman@...
                >
                >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
                > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
                > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [GTh]
                > >
                > >
                > > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
                > > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
                > > Dave Renfro
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                > > To unsubscribe from this group,
                > > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                > To unsubscribe from this group,
                > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                > To unsubscribe from this group,
                > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
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                >
              • Jacob Knee
                Asking is all you have to do - they give it to anyone who asks. Best wishes, Jacob ... From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                  Asking is all you have to do - they give it to anyone who asks.

                  Best wishes,
                  Jacob



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Judy Redman
                  Sent: 02 November 2005 09:36
                  To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [GTh]

                  Jacob,

                  Thanks sooo much for this? How do I prove that I am a scholar?

                  Judy

                  --
                  " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                  the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                  Rev Judy Redman
                  Uniting Church Chaplain
                  University of New England
                  Armidale 2351
                  ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                  fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                  web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                  email: jredman@...


                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Knee
                  > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 7:45 PM
                  > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                  >
                  >
                  > Don't forget that T and T Clark International do a 50% scholars
                  > discount if you ask. Order via email and ask for the discount.
                  >
                  > Still expensive but not completely ridiculous.
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  > Jacob Knee
                  > (Cam, Glos.)
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Redman
                  > Sent: 02 November 2005 04:29
                  > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                  >
                  > I am very eager to get this book as it will be very helpful for my
                  > research, so I have been checking fairly regularly on the web. The T
                  > & T Clark website says it will be available in December and will cost
                  > $130 US (ouch - that's $175 Australian by the time I get it posted
                  > here). Amazon is offering it for less (how do they do that?) See
                  > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
                  > 34)/BookDetail
                  > .aspx?BookID=12360
                  >
                  > The website says the commentary and translation will be available in
                  > June 06. Same price. See
                  > http://www.tandtclarkinternational.com/(01iavp45hqhlqs55l5l5js
                  > 34)/BookDetail
                  > .aspx?BookID=13136
                  >
                  > Judy
                  >
                  > --
                  > " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to
                  > us as the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944
                  >
                  > Rev Judy Redman
                  > Uniting Church Chaplain
                  > University of New England
                  > Armidale 2351
                  > ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                  > fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                  > web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                  > email: jredman@...
                  >
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  > > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 3:44 AM
                  > > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [GTh]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Does anyone know anything about April DeConick's book on
                  > > the "Kernel Text" in GoTh?
                  > > Dave Renfro
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group,
                  > > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                  > To unsubscribe from this group,
                  > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                  > To unsubscribe from this group,
                  > send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --------------------------------------------------------------------
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                  To unsubscribe from this group,
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                • David Renfro
                  Words like New Traditionsgeschichtliche don t come cheap. D.R.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                    Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                    D.R.
                  • Ron McCann
                    ... Lol. I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies. Seems she
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                      At 06:02 AM 11/2/05, David R wrote:
                      > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                      > D.R.

                      Lol.
                      I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                      at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                      Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                      otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                      friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
                      The chapter synopsis seems erudite enough.
                      I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
                      Think I'll wait for some reviews of the book, before I bite.
                      Bit pricy for me.

                      Ron






                      >--------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
                      >To unsubscribe from this group,
                      >send a blank email to gthomas-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                    • William Arnal
                      ... Aw, c mon. . . . surely we don t need this kind of thing. April deConick is a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the Gospel
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                        Ron McCann wrote:

                        >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                        >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                        >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                        >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                        >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.

                        Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
                        a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
                        Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
                        other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
                        inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
                        look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
                        whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
                        "lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
                        the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
                        of her arguments, and so forth.

                        >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.

                        This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
                        be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?

                        And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
                        them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
                        approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.

                        regards,
                        Bill
                        ______________________
                        William Arnal
                        University of Regina
                      • Ron McCann
                        Bill, Rebuke taken, and well deserved. Whatever got into me? Ron
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                          Bill,
                          Rebuke taken, and well deserved.
                          Whatever got into me?

                          Ron
                          At 06:17 PM 11/2/05, you wrote:

                          >Ron McCann wrote:
                          >
                          > >I googled this lady. Seems she is an Associate Professor of Religion
                          > >at Westleyn University specializing in ancient biblical studies.
                          > >Seems she specializes in ancient mystical teachings both Judaic and
                          > >otherwise. Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                          > >friends and members of the same Unitarian Universalist Congregation.
                          >
                          >Aw, c'mon. . . . surely we don't need this kind of thing. April deConick is
                          >a credentialled, well-published, and ENORMOUSLY respected expert on the
                          >Gospel of Thomas. Looking into her religious beliefs or association with
                          >other individuals BEFORE reading her work and assessing her conclusions is
                          >inappropriate and quite beside the point. You want to research a scholar,
                          >look first at what they've WRITTEN, not their personal life. I wonder
                          >whether we'd be as quick to personalize the discussion if April weren't a
                          >"lady." If one wants to critique her work, it ought to be on the basis of
                          >the cogency (or lack thereof) of the work itself, the accuracy and strength
                          >of her arguments, and so forth.
                          >
                          > >I just hope it's not bent too far into the mystical and meditative.
                          >
                          >This assumes that you know in advance exactly how mystical Thomas OUGHT to
                          >be. Why not read the argument, assess how convincing it is, and THEN decide?
                          >
                          >And sorry, Ron, if these comments seem a little personal -- I don't intend
                          >them so much as a rebuke to you individually as a response to a *kind* of
                          >approach to scholarship that I am seriously bothered by.
                          >
                          >regards,
                          >Bill
                          >______________________
                          >William Arnal
                          >University of Regina
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Stephen C. Carlson
                          ... I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate whatever information he can provide about
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 2, 2005
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                            At 02:49 PM 11/2/2005 -0600, Ron McCann wrote:
                            >Looks like she and Wade Grenier are, at a minimum, close
                            >friends

                            I believe that Wade has already said on list that he and
                            April are married. As a result, I very much appreciate
                            whatever information he can provide about her new book.

                            Stephen Carlson

                            --
                            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                            Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                            Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                          • Judy Redman
                            ... Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don t come cheap, unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
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                              David writes:
                              >
                              > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                              > D.R.

                              Hardcover books for a fairly specialist market like GThos don't come cheap,
                              unfortunately. I like reading hardcover books with higher quality paper,
                              rather than paperbacks with lower quality paper, but I buy my hardcovers
                              secondhand whenever I can (I love Abe Books!!) and I often decided that I'll
                              even buy paperbacks secondhand because the information is still the same.

                              I think you're damned if you do and damned if you don't in this kind of
                              field. Use words like "Traditiongeschichtliche" and you get accused of
                              being elitist, obscure etc. Write something that is going to be more
                              readily accessible to the non-specialist reader (like Elaine Pagels' "Beyond
                              Belief") and you get dismissed as writing "theology lite".

                              It's particularly difficult, as Bill suggests, if you happen to be a female
                              scholar, because if you don't use the technical terms, some people are not
                              above suggesting that this is because you don't understand them and that
                              your level of scholarship is pretty low, just like you'd expect of a woman.
                              OTOH, it is also difficult if you are an intelligent, interested 'lay
                              person' ie someone who hasn't had formal university education the field but
                              wants to get beyond "Isn't GThos cool and I just love being a gnostic" and
                              the books you want to read are sprinkled with unexplained technical terms.
                              I suspect that if more people had written theology that was accessible to
                              the intelligent layperson there wouldn't be anywhere near the problem with
                              Christian fundamentalism that I see today.

                              I've just spent half an hour trying to work out how to translate
                              "Traditionsgeschichtliche" neatly but helpfully into English (hampered by
                              having my theological German dictionary at work, admittedly) and haven't
                              come up with anything all that wonderful. I guess Tradition Critical, but I
                              have never found the term Biblical Criticism or its variants particularly
                              helpful. No matter how many times I assure myself that criticism in this
                              sense means 'careful analytical study of' rather than 'articulating in
                              minute detail how wrong something is', I still need to do a double take
                              every time I see the term.

                              I've found DeConick's other works helpful and scholarly and this table of
                              contents looks as though it will come up to the same standard.

                              Judy

                              --
                              " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                              the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                              Rev Judy Redman
                              Uniting Church Chaplain
                              University of New England
                              Armidale 2351
                              ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                              fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                              web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                              email: jredman@...


                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Renfro
                              > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2005 11:03 PM
                              > To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: RE: [GTh]
                              >
                              >
                              > Words like "New Traditionsgeschichtliche" don't come cheap.
                              > D.R.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > Gospel of Thomas Homepage: http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html
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                            • David Renfro
                              I wish I d put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0). This is a tough crowd, y all make the Gnostic s look like Party-animals. I ve been anticipating this
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                I wish I'd put a Smiley Face behind that post now, ;0).
                                This is a tough crowd, y'all make the Gnostic's look like
                                Party-animals.
                                I've been anticipating this book for months and will eventually
                                come off the money for the hard cover; I like books.
                                Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                                "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any traditionsgeschichtliche.
                                Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.
                                Answers.com gave me this.
                                David Renfro

                                Re: orion-list War Scroll and Cargo cults
                                P. von der Osten-Sacken, Gott und Belial: Traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen
                                zum Dualismus in den Texten aus Qumran (Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht: Göttingen, ...
                                orion.mscc.huji.ac.il/orion/ archives/2000b/msg00207.html

                                NT-genre
                                For the missionary speech in general see Ulrich Wilckens, Die Missionsrede der
                                Apostelgeschichte: Form- und traditiongeschichtliche Untersuchungen, 2nd ed. ...
                                www.cranfordville.com/NT-genre.htm
                              • Judy Redman
                                ... Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                  David writes:

                                  > Thanks for the attempted translation, Judy. Note, this is
                                  > "New" traditionsgeschichtliche; not just any
                                  > traditionsgeschichtliche.
                                  > Was there an "Old" traditiongeschichtliche.

                                  Should this have had a smiley after it too, David? :-) The problem is that
                                  I am a university chaplain - students ask me about things and I try to find
                                  answers for them. And much of the thinking around this will be of use when
                                  I write the methodology chapter of my thesis. :-)

                                  In case it shouldn't have had a smiley, looking at the list of sections
                                  under the heading "New" Traditionsgeschichtliche Approach


                                  1.1 The Historical Contexture of Traditions
                                  1.2 The Referential Horizon of Traditions
                                  1.3 The Communal Nature of Traditions
                                  1.4 The Responsive Nature of Traditions
                                  1.5 The Shift of Traditions
                                  1.6 Streams of Traditions
                                  1.7 Transmission of Traditions

                                  it seems likely that DeConick is proposing that there are some particular
                                  things that need to be taken into account in Traditionsgeschichte that
                                  haven't been looked at so intentionally in the past. I have no memory of
                                  seeing a list of things that need to be considered that included all these
                                  things. I'm used to much more general statements such as "Tradition
                                  criticism (including form criticism) studies how information was passed from
                                  one generation to another before it was put in its present form. ...
                                  Tradition criticism attempts to trace the stages by which these traditions
                                  were handed down, the forms they took at those various stages, and the forms
                                  in which they reached the people who committed them to writing."
                                  (http://www.shakinandshinin.org/BiblicalCriticism.html) So perhaps the new
                                  approach is a more structured and intentional one.

                                  We will have to wait until we get copies of the book and see.

                                  Judy

                                  --
                                  " Let us forever remember that the sense for the sacred is as vital to us as
                                  the light of the sun." - Abraham Joshua Heschel, 1944

                                  Rev Judy Redman
                                  Uniting Church Chaplain
                                  University of New England
                                  Armidale 2351
                                  ph: +61 2 6773 3739
                                  fax: +61 2 6773 3749
                                  web: http://www.une.edu.au/campus/chaplaincy/uniting/
                                  email: jredman@...



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Renfro
                                  Judy, I ran across a cool word recently that seems appropriate to the topic; Euhemerist , (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if you don t already
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                    Judy,
                                    I ran across a "cool" word recently that seems appropriate to
                                    the topic; "Euhemerist", (in fact I was called one). Check it out, if
                                    you don't already know it.
                                    I like it when a single word covers so much ground.
                                    Dave Renfro
                                  • rhubbard@midmaine.com
                                    Hi all! By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche / traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                      Hi all!

                                      By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                                      traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                      Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                                      called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                                      (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                                      a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                                      uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                                      Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                                      which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                                      know ļ:

                                      Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                      Naturweisheit
                                      Prostaxis
                                      Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                      Homoioarchton


                                      Rick Hubbard
                                      Humble Maine Woodsman
                                    • David Renfro
                                      Spare me the test, what s the skinny? Keep it woods-z. D.R. rhubbard@midmaine.com wrote: Hi all! ... Here s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                        Spare me the test, what's the skinny? Keep it woods-z.
                                        D.R.

                                        rhubbard@... wrote:
                                        Hi all!
                                        ...
                                        Here's a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should know :

                                        Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                        Naturweisheit
                                        Prostaxis
                                        Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                        Homoioarchton

                                        Rick Hubbard
                                        Humble Maine Woodsman
                                      • Jacob Knee
                                        I think the there is a third edition now in print: Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded) by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Nov 5, 2005
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                                          I think the there is a third edition now in print:

                                          Handbook of Biblical Criticism (3rd Edition/Revised & Expanded)

                                          by Richard N. Soulen, R. Kendall Soulen


                                          Richard Soulen and R. Kendall Soulen have thoroughly revised this
                                          comprehensive guide to the basic terms and concepts of biblical criticism.
                                          Integrating the newest methods and theories of biblical studies, this third
                                          edition contains over 800 terms, phrases, names, explanations of common
                                          abbreviations, notes on major methodologies and exegetical basics,
                                          biographical sketches of key figures in the history of research, analytical
                                          outlines of fundamental critical problems, a list of bibliographic tools,
                                          plus an invaluable Diagram of Biblical Interpretation. Everything a student
                                          needs for a class in biblical interpretation. Richard N. Soulen is a retired
                                          Methodist minister and professor of New Testament at the School of Theology,
                                          Virginia Union University. He is also the editor of Care for the Dying:
                                          Resources of Theology. R. Kendall Soulen is Professor of Systematic Theology
                                          at Wesley Theological Seminary. His publications include The God of Israel
                                          and Christian Theology (Fortress, 1996).

                                          https://www.ppcbooks.com/Details.asp?BookID=0664223141

                                          Best wishes,
                                          Jacob

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: gthomas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:gthomas@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                          rhubbard@...
                                          Sent: 04 November 2005 18:56
                                          To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [GTh]

                                          Hi all!

                                          By now the question about the translation of traditiongeschichtliche /
                                          traditiongeschichte has probably been settled to everyones satisfaction.
                                          Nevertheless, I¡¦ll call everyone¡¦s attention to a nifty little book
                                          called the Hand Book of Biblical Criticisim, bt Richard N. Soulen
                                          (Atlanta: John Knox, 1976). I¡¦m almost sure it is out of print but it has
                                          a wealth of defintions about obscure words like traditiongeschichtliche,
                                          uberlirferungsgeschicte, and variations thereon.

                                          Here¡¦s a quick test, by the way, on terms defined in the dictionary and
                                          which presumably any one engaged in historical-critical research should
                                          know ļ:

                                          Lasterkatalog/Tugendkatalog
                                          Naturweisheit
                                          Prostaxis
                                          Sich realisierende Eschatologie
                                          Homoioarchton


                                          Rick Hubbard
                                          Humble Maine Woodsman





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