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[gthomas] Re: No Matthean influence on 39

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  • Stevan Davies
    Paul ... It think it was reductio ad absurdum I was trying to utilize and not straw man. After all, if scribes and pharisees could have been a common
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 1 11:46 AM
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      Paul
      > Not my argument, but the strawman in the corner claims it.

      It think it was reductio ad absurdum I was trying to utilize and
      not straw man. After all, if "scribes and pharisees" could
      have been a common Christian trope (does anyone know
      what "trope" really means?) then you cannot use the phrase
      as an identifier for Markan influence.

      > This same reasoning could be applied to a whole pericope of verbatim
      > agreement between GTh and the Synoptics ,if such a thing existed, and the
      > claim made that the synoptics and GTh got the material in the air and so why
      > even look at that nasty question of textual dependence.

      In my experience this problem does tend to come down to how people
      imagine that early Christians got their information. There are people
      who (anachronistically I think) presume that textual transmission was
      the norm and oral tradition was exceptional, and people who presume
      the opposite.

      > My argument is "can't rule out Matthean (synoptic) redaction of
      39", not
      > "can prove Matthean (synoptic) redaction of 39".

      Like virtually everything else in historiography we end up with
      problems of probability rather than certainty. Is it probable that
      GTh took a trope, found in all gospels, specifically from Mt while
      utilizing Lk or Oral Trad for the remainder of the saying? No.

      Steve


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    • Paul Miller
      Steve wrote: After all, if scribes and pharisees could have been a common Christian trope (does anyone know what trope really means?) then you cannot use
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 1 1:36 PM
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        Steve wrote:
        After all, if "scribes and pharisees" could
        have been a common Christian trope (does anyone know
        what "trope" really means?) then you cannot use the phrase
        as an identifier for Markan influence.-------------------------

        If "scribes and pharisees" could have been?
        If "scribes and pharisees" was a common Christian figure of speech then I
        agree that the phrase cannot be used as an identifier of Markan influence.

        Paul Miller



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      • Jos Stollman
        ... I think trope means return and comes from greek trepo(mai) You see this also in tropical zone , the zone where the suns returns twice a year. The
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 2 8:07 AM
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          > It think it was reductio ad absurdum I was trying to utilize and
          > not straw man. After all, if "scribes and pharisees" could
          > have been a common Christian trope (does anyone know
          > what "trope" really means?) then you cannot use the phrase
          > as an identifier for Markan influence.

          I think "trope" means return and comes from greek "trepo(mai)"
          You see this also in 'tropical zone', the zone where the suns returns twice
          a year.
          The common Christian trope is an expression one returns to from time to
          time.

          Jos Stollman (astronomer with classical background and special interest in
          Gth)


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