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[gthomas] Re: No Matthean influence on 39

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  • Paul Miller
    Steve Wrote: Your argument requires as a premise that anything found in Mark is the cause of that thing showing up in any other ancient Christian text. But
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 31, 1999
      Steve Wrote:
      Your argument requires as a premise that anything found in Mark
      is the cause of that thing showing up in any other ancient Christian text.
      But there is the possibility that things show up in Mark because they were
      in the air and Mark got them thence.
      ------------------------------------------

      Yes, of course some things show up in Mark because they were in the air,
      although I see the whole oral tradition thing as being overblown by modern
      NT scholarship. Mark like the other synoptics is a literary creation with
      some history thrown in. For just one example they use historical figures
      like JB, Pilate, Caiaphas, and Herod in fictional ways. The question is was
      the occurence and repetition in the synoptics of "Scribes and Pharisees" in
      the air or part of the creation?

      Steve wrote:
      Really, when you consider it, your argument requires that
      Mark be wholly fictional, thus unique to Mark, and so therefore
      only by Markan connection can a Markan trope be found elsewhere. If Mark
      gets things from Oral Tradition, so can others, and thus the dependence idea
      won't work. -------------

      Not my argument, but the strawman in the corner claims it.
      This same reasoning could be applied to a whole pericope of verbatim
      agreement between GTh and the Synoptics ,if such a thing existed, and the
      claim made that the synoptics and GTh got the material in the air and so why
      even look at that nasty question of textual dependence.
      My argument is "can't rule out Matthean (synoptic) redaction of 39", not
      "can prove Matthean (synoptic) redaction of 39".

      Paul Miller




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    • Stevan Davies
      Paul ... It think it was reductio ad absurdum I was trying to utilize and not straw man. After all, if scribes and pharisees could have been a common
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 1, 1999
        Paul
        > Not my argument, but the strawman in the corner claims it.

        It think it was reductio ad absurdum I was trying to utilize and
        not straw man. After all, if "scribes and pharisees" could
        have been a common Christian trope (does anyone know
        what "trope" really means?) then you cannot use the phrase
        as an identifier for Markan influence.

        > This same reasoning could be applied to a whole pericope of verbatim
        > agreement between GTh and the Synoptics ,if such a thing existed, and the
        > claim made that the synoptics and GTh got the material in the air and so why
        > even look at that nasty question of textual dependence.

        In my experience this problem does tend to come down to how people
        imagine that early Christians got their information. There are people
        who (anachronistically I think) presume that textual transmission was
        the norm and oral tradition was exceptional, and people who presume
        the opposite.

        > My argument is "can't rule out Matthean (synoptic) redaction of
        39", not
        > "can prove Matthean (synoptic) redaction of 39".

        Like virtually everything else in historiography we end up with
        problems of probability rather than certainty. Is it probable that
        GTh took a trope, found in all gospels, specifically from Mt while
        utilizing Lk or Oral Trad for the remainder of the saying? No.

        Steve


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      • Paul Miller
        Steve wrote: After all, if scribes and pharisees could have been a common Christian trope (does anyone know what trope really means?) then you cannot use
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 1, 1999
          Steve wrote:
          After all, if "scribes and pharisees" could
          have been a common Christian trope (does anyone know
          what "trope" really means?) then you cannot use the phrase
          as an identifier for Markan influence.-------------------------

          If "scribes and pharisees" could have been?
          If "scribes and pharisees" was a common Christian figure of speech then I
          agree that the phrase cannot be used as an identifier of Markan influence.

          Paul Miller



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        • Jos Stollman
          ... I think trope means return and comes from greek trepo(mai) You see this also in tropical zone , the zone where the suns returns twice a year. The
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 2, 1999
            > It think it was reductio ad absurdum I was trying to utilize and
            > not straw man. After all, if "scribes and pharisees" could
            > have been a common Christian trope (does anyone know
            > what "trope" really means?) then you cannot use the phrase
            > as an identifier for Markan influence.

            I think "trope" means return and comes from greek "trepo(mai)"
            You see this also in 'tropical zone', the zone where the suns returns twice
            a year.
            The common Christian trope is an expression one returns to from time to
            time.

            Jos Stollman (astronomer with classical background and special interest in
            Gth)


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