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Re: [GTh] Line Numbers

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  • BitsyCat1@aol.com
    ... Observation, The two made one, would make 1336 lines of another document into the 668 assuming the original was fragmented into 1136 lines and condensed
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
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      In a message dated 2/2/05 12:03:52 PM, FMMCCOY@... writes:


      > As the 1,300 lines for this version of GTh is an estimate rather than an
      > exact figure, and as our Coptic version of GTh has 668 lines, this leads me
      > to wonder if GTh circulated with standardized lines, with the Coptic version
      > having exactly half the number of lines of the other (Greek?) version.--for
      > 668x2 is 1,336.
      >

      Observation,

      The two made one, would make 1336 lines of another document into the 668
      assuming the original was fragmented into 1136 lines and condensed into 668
      in Coptic

      This would continue the theme of the two made one throughout.

      Could the puzzle then be to expand the Coptic, in order to get the original?

      As I recall there was a previous observation that Thomas would fit nicely
      into Matthew.,
      has anyone tried that with Mark.

      The Idea that it could be Keyed not only as noted to the AOJ.

      What if these verses some of which have canonical parallels, could be keyed
      to that
      based upon the solution?

      That is the Coptic Scribe may say, This belongs in the Gospel account, and
      was not used.

      Here, this was used, but this was not.

      Notes or Shorthand for how to read the Gospels, and include the absent
      material.

      The Odd ordering that appears in some instances to make no sense or as I ve
      heard seems to be
      rather random.

      May be a result of trying to order these Sayings in a way that they could
      actually fit, in more than one document.


      Regards,
      JOHN MOON
      Springfield<Tenn 37172


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Grondin
      ... We should probably keep that size of 1300 lines in mind, as something perhaps useful later on, but I really don t think that the Coptic version could have
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
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        Frank McCoy writes:
        > If GTh did have standardized lines, with the Coptic version having exactly
        > half the number of lines of the other version, then this is compatible
        > with
        > the idea that GTh is a word puzzle, with it originally being a (Greek?)
        > word
        > puzzle of 1,336 lines, but with a Coptic version of the word puzzle,
        > perhaps
        > markedly different in some respects from the other version, later
        > developed
        > with exactly half as many lines.

        We should probably keep that size of 1300 lines in mind, as something
        perhaps useful later on, but I really don't think that the Coptic version
        could have been half the size of a Greek version - at least insofar as the
        POxy fragments are representative of the Greek version. The fragments
        contain SOME material not in the Coptic (in the form of additional words in
        a couple of sayings), but not a whole lot.

        And to John - control yourself, man! Stay down to earth. Learn from Frank's
        conservative approach. Stick with what we KNOW (or at least have good reason
        to believe) is involved here.

        Mike
      • BitsyCat1@aol.com
        Indeed Then let me raise Simply the question, I merely raise the question, If there is a direct 2 to 1 ratio, Is it intentional, and if so, What does that
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
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          Indeed Then let me raise Simply the question,

          I merely raise the question, If there is a direct 2 to 1 ratio, Is it
          intentional, and if so,
          What does that mean?

          Frank seems to suggest that its intentional.

          I merely formed the question which seems to be the direction he is going.

          The open question would be WHY.
          1) is it intentional?
          2) why is it intentional?
          3) a) what does that mean?
          b) what did it mean to the Coptic scribe.
          c) what might that mean to the reader

          If the answer to question One is, Its not intentional, but rather
          coincidental.

          Then the question is answered.
          If it is not coincidental?

          Then it raises many questions, which IM sure you can better
          formulate.

          Regards,
          John Moon
          Springfield<Tenn 37172


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Grondin
          Some further thoughts on the 1300-line figure, Frank. 1. After writing my earlier note, it occurred to me that maybe the line-size of the Greek text was about
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
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            Some further thoughts on the 1300-line figure, Frank.

            1. After writing my earlier note, it occurred to me that maybe the line-size
            of the Greek text was about half that of the Coptic. I discovered that
            there's interesting but confusing differences between the three sets of
            fragments designated POxy 1, 654, and 655. According to Layton's critical
            edition, scholars have determined that POxy 1 came from a codex, but that
            654 and 655 came from rolls. The typical line-length in POxy 654 seems to be
            about the same as the Coptic - maybe a little more - but since the Thomas
            material was apparently copied onto the back of something else (some kind of
            land survey), it may be discounted for that reason. The typical line-lengths
            of POxy 1 and POxy 655, on the other hand, appear to be substantially
            smaller than the Coptic - not half, I would say, but maybe about 3/4 (say
            about 18 letters per line versus 24 in the Coptic). But remember, this is a
            different language. When I made my interlinear, for example, it soon became
            evident that it generally took significantly more letters to express the
            same thought in English than in Coptic. So maybe the Greek text did have
            1300 lines of generally smaller size than the Coptic.

            2. The 1300-line figure is supported by certain indications of what the text
            might look like AFTER it's been restructured or rebuilt. One plausible
            possibility at this point is that the FINAL structure may represent the
            twelve apostles + Jesus, and that each of these 13 segments has the same
            nice, round number of lines. If so, then the typical line size of the Coptic
            text as it now stands (which is BEFORE the thing is torn apart and rebuilt)
            may be about half of what it'll be at the end. The average line-length in
            the Coptic text is 25.25 letters (16848/667 - lines 9 and 668 counted as
            one), but if - for the sake of argument - the final structure has, say,
            exactly 13 letters per line, then the number of lines would approximately
            double. (And if it turns out that there's the equivalent of 18 lines to be
            set aside for some reason or other - perhaps because they're "weeds" - the
            approximate becomes exactitude.) That's a hell of a lot of IF's, and we'll
            only know for sure at the end, but 1300 isn't inherently implausible, IMO.
            (BTW, this may be of no importance, but line 280 contains 13 syllables, and
            "bad" numbers like 11 and 17 seem to figure prominently. I think it has to
            do with GPh's talk about how "good" and "bad" are really brothers of each
            other.)

            Mike Grondin
          • David Renfro
            Is it possible the order and numerical values reflect the pentameter and stanzas of an oral tradition, a poem, maybe even a song? Dave Renfro
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 3, 2005
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              Is it possible the order and numerical values
              reflect the pentameter and stanzas of an oral
              tradition, a poem, maybe even a song?
              Dave Renfro

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            • Michael Grondin
              ... Basically, no - in my opinion. In the first place, I believe that the Gospel of Thomas was always intended to be a secret document shared only among
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 3, 2005
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                Dave Renfro writes:
                > Is it possible the order and numerical values
                > reflect the pentameter and stanzas of an oral
                > tradition, a poem, maybe even a song?

                Basically, no - in my opinion. In the first place, I believe that the Gospel
                of Thomas was always intended to be a secret document shared only among
                initiates. It probably used elements from oral tradition, and they may have
                counted (Coptic) syllables to create some kind of "rhythm", but IMO any such
                "rhythm" was based on the numbers they wanted to use, rather than the other
                way round.

                Mike
              • Mike McLafferty
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                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 4, 2005
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                  Frank McCoy wrote:




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