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Re: [GTh] Line Numbers

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  • fmmccoy
    In the theory that the Coptic text of GTh is a word puzzle, it is posited that line numbers are important in enabling one to solve the postulated word puzzle.
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
      In the theory that the Coptic text of GTh is a word puzzle, it is posited
      that line numbers are important in enabling one to solve the postulated word
      puzzle.

      In this regard, I have stumbled on something might be relevant to this
      postulate.

      I am referring to Thomas and the Evangelists (p. 25), where Hugh Montefiore
      and H.E.W. Turner state, "A tradition preserved by Victor of Capua (and
      possibly supported by a passage in Epiphanius) described the Diatesaron (the
      Fourfold Harmony) as a Diapente or Five-fold Harmony. He follows Baumstark
      in identifying this source with the Apocryphal Gospel of the Hebrews. The
      Stichometry of Nicephorus Callistus assigns to this document a length of
      2,200 lines. For purposes of comparison the same author estimates Matthew
      as 2,500 lines and a Gospel of Thomas (possibly though not certainly to be
      identified with our document) as 1,300."

      Here, we find, there apparently had been a version of GTh circulating with
      an estimated number of 1,300 lines.

      As the 1,300 lines for this version of GTh is an estimate rather than an
      exact figure, and as our Coptic version of GTh has 668 lines, this leads me
      to wonder if GTh circulated with standardized lines, with the Coptic version
      having exactly half the number of lines of the other (Greek?) version.--for
      668x2 is 1,336.

      If GTh did have standardized lines, with the Coptic version having exactly
      half the number of lines of the other version, then this is compatible with
      the idea that GTh is a word puzzle, with it originally being a (Greek?) word
      puzzle of 1,336 lines, but with a Coptic version of the word puzzle, perhaps
      markedly different in some respects from the other version, later developed
      with exactly half as many lines. However, in and of itself, this by no
      means proves such an idea or, even, gives it inherent plausibility.

      Still, it might be worthwhile to check out the sources.
      1. Victor of Capua, Praef. in evang. harm. I (PL 68, 253)
      2. Epiph, Haer., 46.1.9
      3. Nicephorus Callistus, Chron. (PG 100. 1060), quoted by Vielhauer in NT
      Apok., p. 88. In an appendix, Vielhauer is idenified as a P. Vielhauer. In
      an abbreviation table, PG is said to be "Migne, Patrologia Graeca, Paris".

      Frank McCoy
      1809 N. English Apt 15
      Maplewood, MN 55109
    • BitsyCat1@aol.com
      ... Observation, The two made one, would make 1336 lines of another document into the 668 assuming the original was fragmented into 1136 lines and condensed
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
        In a message dated 2/2/05 12:03:52 PM, FMMCCOY@... writes:


        > As the 1,300 lines for this version of GTh is an estimate rather than an
        > exact figure, and as our Coptic version of GTh has 668 lines, this leads me
        > to wonder if GTh circulated with standardized lines, with the Coptic version
        > having exactly half the number of lines of the other (Greek?) version.--for
        > 668x2 is 1,336.
        >

        Observation,

        The two made one, would make 1336 lines of another document into the 668
        assuming the original was fragmented into 1136 lines and condensed into 668
        in Coptic

        This would continue the theme of the two made one throughout.

        Could the puzzle then be to expand the Coptic, in order to get the original?

        As I recall there was a previous observation that Thomas would fit nicely
        into Matthew.,
        has anyone tried that with Mark.

        The Idea that it could be Keyed not only as noted to the AOJ.

        What if these verses some of which have canonical parallels, could be keyed
        to that
        based upon the solution?

        That is the Coptic Scribe may say, This belongs in the Gospel account, and
        was not used.

        Here, this was used, but this was not.

        Notes or Shorthand for how to read the Gospels, and include the absent
        material.

        The Odd ordering that appears in some instances to make no sense or as I ve
        heard seems to be
        rather random.

        May be a result of trying to order these Sayings in a way that they could
        actually fit, in more than one document.


        Regards,
        JOHN MOON
        Springfield<Tenn 37172


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Grondin
        ... We should probably keep that size of 1300 lines in mind, as something perhaps useful later on, but I really don t think that the Coptic version could have
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
          Frank McCoy writes:
          > If GTh did have standardized lines, with the Coptic version having exactly
          > half the number of lines of the other version, then this is compatible
          > with
          > the idea that GTh is a word puzzle, with it originally being a (Greek?)
          > word
          > puzzle of 1,336 lines, but with a Coptic version of the word puzzle,
          > perhaps
          > markedly different in some respects from the other version, later
          > developed
          > with exactly half as many lines.

          We should probably keep that size of 1300 lines in mind, as something
          perhaps useful later on, but I really don't think that the Coptic version
          could have been half the size of a Greek version - at least insofar as the
          POxy fragments are representative of the Greek version. The fragments
          contain SOME material not in the Coptic (in the form of additional words in
          a couple of sayings), but not a whole lot.

          And to John - control yourself, man! Stay down to earth. Learn from Frank's
          conservative approach. Stick with what we KNOW (or at least have good reason
          to believe) is involved here.

          Mike
        • BitsyCat1@aol.com
          Indeed Then let me raise Simply the question, I merely raise the question, If there is a direct 2 to 1 ratio, Is it intentional, and if so, What does that
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
            Indeed Then let me raise Simply the question,

            I merely raise the question, If there is a direct 2 to 1 ratio, Is it
            intentional, and if so,
            What does that mean?

            Frank seems to suggest that its intentional.

            I merely formed the question which seems to be the direction he is going.

            The open question would be WHY.
            1) is it intentional?
            2) why is it intentional?
            3) a) what does that mean?
            b) what did it mean to the Coptic scribe.
            c) what might that mean to the reader

            If the answer to question One is, Its not intentional, but rather
            coincidental.

            Then the question is answered.
            If it is not coincidental?

            Then it raises many questions, which IM sure you can better
            formulate.

            Regards,
            John Moon
            Springfield<Tenn 37172


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Grondin
            Some further thoughts on the 1300-line figure, Frank. 1. After writing my earlier note, it occurred to me that maybe the line-size of the Greek text was about
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 2, 2005
              Some further thoughts on the 1300-line figure, Frank.

              1. After writing my earlier note, it occurred to me that maybe the line-size
              of the Greek text was about half that of the Coptic. I discovered that
              there's interesting but confusing differences between the three sets of
              fragments designated POxy 1, 654, and 655. According to Layton's critical
              edition, scholars have determined that POxy 1 came from a codex, but that
              654 and 655 came from rolls. The typical line-length in POxy 654 seems to be
              about the same as the Coptic - maybe a little more - but since the Thomas
              material was apparently copied onto the back of something else (some kind of
              land survey), it may be discounted for that reason. The typical line-lengths
              of POxy 1 and POxy 655, on the other hand, appear to be substantially
              smaller than the Coptic - not half, I would say, but maybe about 3/4 (say
              about 18 letters per line versus 24 in the Coptic). But remember, this is a
              different language. When I made my interlinear, for example, it soon became
              evident that it generally took significantly more letters to express the
              same thought in English than in Coptic. So maybe the Greek text did have
              1300 lines of generally smaller size than the Coptic.

              2. The 1300-line figure is supported by certain indications of what the text
              might look like AFTER it's been restructured or rebuilt. One plausible
              possibility at this point is that the FINAL structure may represent the
              twelve apostles + Jesus, and that each of these 13 segments has the same
              nice, round number of lines. If so, then the typical line size of the Coptic
              text as it now stands (which is BEFORE the thing is torn apart and rebuilt)
              may be about half of what it'll be at the end. The average line-length in
              the Coptic text is 25.25 letters (16848/667 - lines 9 and 668 counted as
              one), but if - for the sake of argument - the final structure has, say,
              exactly 13 letters per line, then the number of lines would approximately
              double. (And if it turns out that there's the equivalent of 18 lines to be
              set aside for some reason or other - perhaps because they're "weeds" - the
              approximate becomes exactitude.) That's a hell of a lot of IF's, and we'll
              only know for sure at the end, but 1300 isn't inherently implausible, IMO.
              (BTW, this may be of no importance, but line 280 contains 13 syllables, and
              "bad" numbers like 11 and 17 seem to figure prominently. I think it has to
              do with GPh's talk about how "good" and "bad" are really brothers of each
              other.)

              Mike Grondin
            • David Renfro
              Is it possible the order and numerical values reflect the pentameter and stanzas of an oral tradition, a poem, maybe even a song? Dave Renfro
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 3, 2005
                Is it possible the order and numerical values
                reflect the pentameter and stanzas of an oral
                tradition, a poem, maybe even a song?
                Dave Renfro

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              • Michael Grondin
                ... Basically, no - in my opinion. In the first place, I believe that the Gospel of Thomas was always intended to be a secret document shared only among
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 3, 2005
                  Dave Renfro writes:
                  > Is it possible the order and numerical values
                  > reflect the pentameter and stanzas of an oral
                  > tradition, a poem, maybe even a song?

                  Basically, no - in my opinion. In the first place, I believe that the Gospel
                  of Thomas was always intended to be a secret document shared only among
                  initiates. It probably used elements from oral tradition, and they may have
                  counted (Coptic) syllables to create some kind of "rhythm", but IMO any such
                  "rhythm" was based on the numbers they wanted to use, rather than the other
                  way round.

                  Mike
                • Mike McLafferty
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                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 4, 2005
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