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Re: [GTh] Three Blocks/Sayings and GThomas Cosmology

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  • Michael Grondin
    ... You re on the right track to be thinking in terms of numbers, but 71+29 = 100, not 110. Also, the three blocks in question (which are the smallest of the 9
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 31, 2005
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      Frank McCoy writes:

      > Also supporting this hypothesis that the three blocks/sayings constitute a
      > cosmos consisting of earth and two heavens is a very remarkable feature to
      > them. That is, the second one, 12/71, is, in terms of sayings numbers,
      > equidistant from the first one, i.e., 12/42, and the third one,
      > 23/110--for
      > 71-29 = 42 and 71 + 29 = 110!

      You're on the right track to be thinking in terms of numbers, but 71+29 =
      100, not 110. Also, the three blocks in question (which are the smallest of
      the 9 single-saying blocks) don't represent the world.

      > Since 29 is the number of full days in a lunar cycle, this indicates that
      > the second block/saying is associated in some fashion with the moon.

      Isn't 28 the number of days in a lunar (and Jewish) month? That explains why
      the number 280 is important. I don't see any such importance to the number
      29.

      > This is an indication that it represents a heaven for the wandering
      > stars--for the moon was, at the time, classified with the sun and what we
      > today call planets as wandering stars.
      >
      > Indeed, at the time, there was a widespread belief that there are two
      > heavens--an inner one for the wandering stars (and frequently sub-divided
      > into seven sub-heavens) and an outer one for the fixed stars.

      Thanks for that. I was wondering why there should be two heavens.

      > To be more specific, I suggest that this is to clue in the reader that
      > they
      > are to be interpreted in this fashion:
      > 6/42 A.come into being (as an imperishable spirit)
      > B as you pass away (as a *perishable body of flesh*)
      > 12/71 A I will destroy this building (i.e., I will voluntarily end the
      > life
      > of my *perishable body of flesh*)
      > B and no one will be able to rebuild it (i.e., and no one will be
      > able to restore it to *having life*)
      > 23/110 A whoever finds the world (where one, as a spirit, *has life*) and
      > becomes rich
      > B let him renounce the world (where one, as a body of flesh,
      > faces death)

      Very nice interpretation, Frank. I won't be catty and ask if you have any
      Roman Empire texts to support this; I'll just say that it's my experience
      that the textual puzzle-pieces intended to go together fit just as snugly as
      pieces in a jigsaw puzzle. Although finding the right combination of pieces
      is difficult, when you find them, it's evident that there can be no other.
      This is "the rule of multiple witnesses" - i.e., several different factors
      point in exactly the same direction, and they do so non-ambiguously.

      > In support of this interpretation of 12/71, it is noteworthy that, in John
      > 2:21, the building/temple of another version of this saying is declared to
      > have been the body of Jesus.

      You're on the right track to be thinking in terms of John's writings (both
      gospel and Revelations). The AoJ wasn't called _The Apocryphon OF JOHN_ for
      nothing. (As I've already indicated, the aleph/nu in that title points to
      P-LOGOS at line 510. There is other evidence that I won't get into because
      it's not firmed up yet.)

      > A final note: Because this suggestion utilizes the non-Barbeleotic
      > cosmology
      > of one earth and two heavens to be found in GThomas itself, it raises
      > serious questions about the validity of any variety of the theory that the
      > Coptic text of GThomas is a word puzzle which depends upon the premise
      > that,
      > in solving this puzzle, a knowledge of the Barbeleotic concept of the
      > cosmos
      > is necessary or, even, useful.

      It may not be necessary, but it certainly would be useful if we knew the
      _sequence_ of steps and/or stages in solving the puzzle. I believe (though I
      can't prove) that the Barbeloite initiate was to read the three texts as a
      trilogy. The outer two texts would have given clues (if properly
      interpreted) to the nature and solution of the Thomas puzzle. I note in this
      regard that GPh refers to a mule which goes round and round on a treadmill,
      traveling a great many miles, but never getting anywhere. I THINK that this
      was an analogy to someone who tries to put the puzzle together without
      sufficient guidance. One can see a great many potential moves, but if one
      has no idea of the overall strategy, one will go round and round without
      getting anywhere. That "overall strategy" is, I think, contained in saying
      22, but I also think there's helpful stuff in AoJ and GPh. In particular, I
      think that the cosmogony of AoJ reflects either how the "new world" is to be
      constructed, or perhaps how the "old world" (i.e., the text of GTh as it
      stands) WAS constructed. I can't yet prove that, because I can't decode the
      cosmogony, but it STM very likely.

      Mike Grondin
    • fmmccoy
      ... From: Michael Grondin To: Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Three
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 1, 2005
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Michael Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 10:43 AM
        Subject: Re: [GTh] Three Blocks/Sayings and GThomas Cosmology


        >
        > Frank McCoy writes:
        >
        > > Also supporting this hypothesis that the three blocks/sayings constitute
        a
        > > cosmos consisting of earth and two heavens is a very remarkable feature
        to
        > > them. That is, the second one, 12/71, is, in terms of sayings numbers,
        > > equidistant from the first one, i.e., 12/42, and the third one,
        > > 23/110--for
        > > 71-29 = 42 and 71 + 29 = 110!

        > You're on the right track to be thinking in terms of numbers, but 71+29 =
        > 100, not 110. Also, the three blocks in question (which are the smallest
        of
        > the 9 single-saying blocks) don't represent the world.

        Sorry, math done in the head rather than with a calculator.

        The nine single blocks/sayings mentioned by Michael above are:
        1. 4/22, lines 178-193 (16 lines)
        2. 6/42, line 280 (1 line)
        3. 12/71, lines 469-470 (2 lines)
        4. 17/99, lines 592-597 (6 lines)
        5. 18/100, lines 598-602 (5 lines)
        6. 19/101, lines 603-608 (6 lines)
        7. 21/108, lines 635-637 (3 lines)
        8. 22/109, lines 638-645 (8 lines)
        9. 23/110, lines 646-647 (2 lines)
        The number of lines for each block/saying has been calculated by me in my
        head, but they should (hopefully!) be right as I've gone through them twice.

        There are regularities here that suggest that this group of nine is a
        deliberate creation.

        First of all, both the total number of blocks/sayings (which is 9) and the
        total number of lines (which is 49) are square numbers: for 9 = 3x3 and 49 =
        7x7.

        Second, there are is a tendency towards an ABB pattern usage.

        So, there is an ABB pattern to the block numbers. They are divisible into
        three groups:
        1. 4,6,12
        2. 17,18,19
        3. 21,22,23
        Further, these three groups fall into an ABB pattern because the last two
        are alike in that each consists of three consecutive numbers.

        There also is an ABB pattern to the three blocks/sayings with the least
        number of lines:
        6/42 1 line
        12/71 2 lines
        23/110 2 lines
        This ABB pattern is the first having one line, while each of the last two
        has two lines.

        There also is a reversed BBA pattern to three more of the blocks/sayings:
        17/99 6 lines
        19/101 6 lines
        21/108 3 lines
        This BBA pattern is the first two each having 6 lines, while the last one
        has three lines.

        Further, these two sets of three are clearly related. If one divides the
        line numbers in the second set of three by three, then they become a 2-2-1
        pattern--the mirror image of the 1-2-2 pattern of the first set of three.

        What of the remaining set of three blocks/sayings (i.e., 4/22 with 16
        lines, 18/100 with 5 lines, and 22/109 with 8 lines)? Well, it forms an A
        to the BB of the other two--for the other two have in common the trait of
        possessing a 1-2-2 pattern or its reverse.

        In any event, ISTM, there are just too many regularities to this group of 9
        blocks/sayings for it to not be a deliberate creation.

        But, if it is a deliberate creation, then what is its purpose? Suggestions
        are welcomed!

        Frank McCoy
        1809 N. English Apt 15
        Maplewood, MN USA 55109
      • BitsyCat1@aol.com
        ... If I might interject? and ASK. Didnt you( Mike) propose that the disciples were broken down into Groups of Three? If there is a Tendency toward groups of
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 1, 2005
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          In a message dated 2/1/05 11:42:04 AM, FMMCCOY@... writes:


          > the 9 single-saying blocks) don't represent the world.
          >
          > Sorry, math done in the head rather than with a calculator.
          >
          > The nine single blocks/sayings mentioned by Michael above are:
          > 1. 4/22, lines 178-193 (16 lines)
          > 2. 6/42, line 280 (1 line)
          > 3. 12/71, lines 469-470 (2 lines)
          > 4. 17/99, lines 592-597 (6 lines)
          > 5. 18/100, lines 598-602 (5 lines)
          > 6. 19/101, lines 603-608 (6 lines)
          > 7. 21/108, lines 635-637 (3 lines)
          > 8. 22/109, lines 638-645 (8 lines)
          > 9. 23/110, lines 646-647 (2 lines)
          > The number of lines for each block/saying has been calculated by me in my
          > head, but they should (hopefully!) be right as I've gone through them twice.
          >
          > There are regularities here that suggest that this group of nine is a
          > deliberate creation.
          >

          If I might interject? and ASK.

          Didnt you( Mike) propose that the disciples were broken down into Groups of
          Three?

          If there is a Tendency toward groups of Nine

          Might it be related to the Breakdown of Disciples

          Nine, plus a leader for each of the three groups of three

          This would come up with the Markan Twelve.

          Wouldn't this explain the groupings of 3 and The Number nine?
          Or wouldn't there be a direct relation to the reason for that Three and
          nine, that was previously proposed?


          Regards,
          John Moon
          Springfield,Tenn 37172


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Grondin
          Frank- In this note, you play around a little with the 9 single-saying blocks, which is good. The observation that most drew my attention, though, was ...
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 1, 2005
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            Frank-

            In this note, you play around a little with the 9 single-saying blocks,
            which is good. The observation that most drew my attention, though, was
            something I overlooked:

            > ... both the total number of blocks/sayings (which is 9) and the total
            > number of lines (which is 49) are square numbers ...

            Thanks for that. I hadn't put 2 and 2 together, so to speak. There's an
            enormous number of neat numerical patterns like that throughout the text.
            But they can only be "seen" if one thinks in terms of numbers, not words.

            > In any event, ISTM, there are just too many regularities to this group of
            > 9
            > blocks/sayings for it to not be a deliberate creation.
            >
            > But, if it is a deliberate creation, then what is its purpose?
            > Suggestions
            > are welcomed!

            Represents nine months of pregnancy preceding the birth of a new creation?
            All I know is that the transition from 9 to 10 (and again from 99 to 100)
            represented a "new beginning" - i.e., the beginning of a "new level" (from
            units to tens to hundreds, in the case of numbers.) Further, although 49 is
            significant, 50 is even more significant - being the number of a "jubilee
            year" - i.e., the year after a sabbath of sabbaths. I think, then, that
            there must be a hidden one-line block to go with - and to complete - these 9
            blocks of 49 lines. Further, I have a suggestion for what that might be -
            line 577. Think about it. Maybe you can come up with something that ties it
            nicely to the other nine blocks - or maybe you can come up with a better
            candidate for a 10th block that would make for 50 lines total.

            Mike Grondin
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