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Re: [GTh] Crosstalk Discussions

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  • Gordon Raynal
    ... I appreciate this and do want to look at your work and Bill s in depth. As it is Lent/Easter time it will probably be after this season is over, but I ll
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 1 7:32 AM
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      >On 8-2-02, I made a nine part posting on there possibly being three layers
      >to GThomas. The first of the nine posts can be accessed at:
      >
      >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gthomas/message/4987
      >
      >In any event, the fourth part posting includes this excerpt, which gives
      >some information on Arnal's stratification of GThomas:
      >
      >In "The Rhetoric of Marginality: Apocalypticism, Gnosticism, and Sayings
      >Gospels" (Harvard Theological Review, 88:4, 1995), Bill Arnal postulates the
      >existence of two stratum in GTh. The earlier (see p. 478) is "the sapiential
      >stratum" and it includes GTh 3. 5. 6. 9. 14. 16. 20. 26. 31, 32, 34-36, 42,
      >45, 47, 54, 55, 57, 63-65, 71, 74, 76, 89, 95-98, 107, 109, and 110. The
      >later (see p.479) is "the gnostic-leaning stratum" and it includes Gth 11,
      >13, 15, 18, 21-22, 27-28, 49-50, 51, 60, 61, 83, 84, 101, 105, 108, 11, and
      >114.
      >
      >I hope this helps.

      I appreciate this and do want to look at your work and Bill's in depth. As
      it is Lent/Easter time it will probably be after this season is over, but
      I'll print this and look at your work in the egroup files later on.

      Thank you for this help.
      >
      >Incidentally, the fourth post, from which this excerpt comes, is a great
      >embarrasment to me to this day because, in it, I inadvertently referred to
      >April DeConick as "he". After Tom's recent compliment of me (thank you
      >Tom, you are way too kind!), remembrance of gross mistakes like this one,
      >that I way too frequently make, help to bring me back to reality.

      I understand... and I hope that groups like this work to help us correct our
      misstakes!

      Gordon Raynal
      Inman, SC
    • fmmccoy
      ... From: Gordon Raynal To: Cc: Michael Ensley Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:32
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 2 10:49 AM
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Gordon Raynal" <scudi1@...>
        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: "Michael Ensley" <mensley@...>
        Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:32 AM
        Subject: Re: [GTh] Crosstalk Discussions


        > >In "The Rhetoric of Marginality: Apocalypticism, Gnosticism, and Sayings
        > >Gospels" (Harvard Theological Review, 88:4, 1995), Bill Arnal postulates
        the
        > >existence of two stratum in GTh. The earlier (see p. 478) is "the
        sapiential
        > >stratum" and it includes GTh 3. 5. 6. 9. 14. 16. 20. 26. 31, 32, 34-36,
        42,
        > >45, 47, 54, 55, 57, 63-65, 71, 74, 76, 89, 95-98, 107, 109, and 110. The
        > >later (see p.479) is "the gnostic-leaning stratum" and it includes Gth
        11,
        > >13, 15, 18, 21-22, 27-28, 49-50, 51, 60, 61, 83, 84, 101, 105, 108, 11,
        and
        > >114.
        > >
        > >I hope this helps.

        > I appreciate this and do want to look at your work and Bill's in depth.
        As
        > it is Lent/Easter time it will probably be after this season is over, but
        > I'll print this and look at your work in the egroup files later on.
        >
        > Thank you for this help.


        Dear Gordon Raynal:

        I think I made a mistake in the above. In the final sequence of "108, 11,
        and 114", judging by my hand-written notes, the middle saying should be 111
        rather than 11.

        Also, Mike has asked the question about how Arnal classified the sayings
        not listed above. It's been over a year since I read Arnal's paper, so I
        don't know how trustworthy my recollections about it are. In any event, to
        the best of my recollection, he didn't classify them. So, to the best of my
        recollection, he made decisions only about the above listed sayings and left
        the rest in an ambiguous situation.

        > >Incidentally, the fourth post, from which this excerpt comes, is a great
        > >embarrasment to me to this day because, in it, I inadvertently referred
        to
        > >April DeConick as "he". After Tom's recent compliment of me (thank you
        > >Tom, you are way too kind!), remembrance of gross mistakes like this
        one,
        > >that I way too frequently make, help to bring me back to reality.

        > I understand... and I hope that groups like this work to help us correct
        our
        > misstakes!

        I would like to add two points. First, April DeConick has written a paper
        that I consider a "must read" for those doing research on the question of
        whether there are layers of tradition in GThomas. It is, "The Original
        Gospel of Thomas" (Vigiliae Christianae, LVI: 2, 2002, pp.167-199).

        Second, your "misstakes" is a mis-take!

        Regards,

        Frank McCoy
        1809 N. English Apt. 15
        Maplewood, MN 55109
      • William Arnal
        ... That is exactly right. I tried to charactertize each stratum in terms of the sayings that I felt could be assigned to each with some confidence. The
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 2 12:15 PM
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          Hi everyone! Frank McCoy wrote:

          >Also, Mike has asked the question about how Arnal classified the sayings
          >not listed above. It's been over a year since I read Arnal's paper, so I
          >don't know how trustworthy my recollections about it are. In any event, to
          >the best of my recollection, he didn't classify them. So, to the best of
          >my
          >recollection, he made decisions only about the above listed sayings and
          >left
          >the rest in an ambiguous situation.

          That is exactly right. I tried to charactertize each "stratum" in terms of
          the sayings that I felt could be assigned to each with some confidence. The
          remaining sayings could be anything -- later add-ons, yet another stratum,
          or (my personal preference) material that does belong to one or another of
          the two strata I isolated, but which do not show sufficient evidence to
          assign with certainty. Thomas is a pain, in part because it's not organized
          into coherent discourses, and this makes it awfully hard, at times, to even
          venture guesses as to the import of individual sayings. One of Kloppenborg's
          main principles for discerning redaction in Q was the juxtaposition of units
          in terms of thematic organizing principles. If this can be done in Thomas at
          all, it only applies to a very small handful of sayings.

          Frank added:

          >I would like to add two points. First, April DeConick has written a paper
          >that I consider a "must read" for those doing research on the question of
          >whether there are layers of tradition in GThomas. It is, "The Original
          >Gospel of Thomas" (Vigiliae Christianae, LVI: 2, 2002, pp.167-199).

          Absolutely! This is the most recent RIGOROUS attempt to stratify Thomas (in
          print, that is: I'm not implying that Gordon's lacks rigour!). I think it
          would be instructive, though, to read April's piece alongside mine, since
          there are marked *methodological* differences between the two. I'm not all
          that committed, anymore, to the actual stratification I proposed. But I
          remain committed to the METHOD I applied to arrive at that stratification,
          and continue to think that that method is superior to that used either by
          April or by Gordon. But I say this without prejudice to the results, i.e.,
          which actual stratification is more likely to be right, if any.

          regards and happy spring to all,
          Bill
          ______________________
          William Arnal
          University of Regina

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        • Gordon Raynal
          Hi Frank, ... Thanks for the clarification. ... Is this online anywhere? ... thanks:)! Gordon
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 2 12:28 PM
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            Hi Frank,

            >I think I made a mistake in the above. In the final sequence of "108, 11,
            >and 114", judging by my hand-written notes, the middle saying should be 111
            >rather than 11.
            >
            >Also, Mike has asked the question about how Arnal classified the sayings
            >not listed above. It's been over a year since I read Arnal's paper, so I
            >don't know how trustworthy my recollections about it are. In any event, to
            >the best of my recollection, he didn't classify them. So, to the best of my
            >recollection, he made decisions only about the above listed sayings and left
            >the rest in an ambiguous situation.

            Thanks for the clarification.

            >I would like to add two points. First, April DeConick has written a paper
            >that I consider a "must read" for those doing research on the question of
            >whether there are layers of tradition in GThomas. It is, "The Original
            >Gospel of Thomas" (Vigiliae Christianae, LVI: 2, 2002, pp.167-199).

            Is this online anywhere?
            >
            >Second, your "misstakes" is a mis-take!

            thanks:)!

            Gordon
          • Gordon Raynal
            Hi Bill, Good to hear from you! So you survived the winter freeze:)! Is April s work available online? Can you easily send me your rigorous work? To
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 2 12:40 PM
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              Hi Bill,

              Good to hear from you! So you survived the winter freeze:)! Is April's
              work available online? Can you easily send me your "rigorous work?"

              To another matter, I'd like to hear your thoughts about the date and sitz of
              early Thomas. Do you conceive it, like you conceive Q1, "very early" (as
              from you "Jesus and the Village Scribes" work)?

              Gordon
            • William Arnal
              ... And it was a BAD winter this year, for any number of reasons. ... The answer to both questions is, probably not. I am not aware of April s article being
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 3 9:03 AM
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                Hi Gordon et al.:

                >Good to hear from you! So you survived the winter freeze:)!

                And it was a BAD winter this year, for any number of reasons.

                >s April's
                >work available online? Can you easily send me your "rigorous work?"

                The answer to both questions is, probably not. I am not aware of April's
                article being on-line, nor my own. I know that sometime within the last
                couple years, someone had wanted to post my HTR piece on their website, so I
                wrote to HTR about the copyright, and never got a response. I forget who
                wanted to do this, and don't know whether they went ahead with it anyway. I
                doubt it.

                >To another matter, I'd like to hear your thoughts about the date and sitz
                >of
                >early Thomas. Do you conceive it, like you conceive Q1, "very early" (as
                >from you "Jesus and the Village Scribes" work)?

                Well, since I'm no longer convinced I was right, it's hard to say. But yes,
                my inclination was to regard the foundational layer as quite early. And I am
                STILL inclined to date the complete Thomas, i.e., Thomas as we more or less
                have it, as very early -- i.e., 40s to 60s or thereabouts. I have yet to be
                convinced by any of the arguments placing Thomas late-ish.

                cheers,
                Bill
                ______________________
                William Arnal
                University of Regina

                _________________________________________________________________
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              • Peter Kirby
                ... Hello, I am the person who contacted you about posting the HTR article on the web. I am still interested in doing so (on the
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 3 1:10 PM
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                  On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 11:03:04 -0600, William Arnal wrote:
                  > The answer to both questions is, probably not. I am not aware of
                  > April's article being on-line, nor my own. I know that sometime
                  > within the last couple years, someone had wanted to post my HTR
                  > piece on their website, so I wrote to HTR about the copyright, and
                  > never got a response. I forget who wanted to do this, and don't
                  > know whether they went ahead with it anyway. I doubt it.

                  Hello,

                  I am the person who contacted you about posting the HTR article on the web. I am still interested in doing so (on the http://www.christianorigins.com/ web site). Perhaps you could ask HTR again? It would be a great boon to all to have the article available on the web.

                  --
                  Peter Kirby (Student at Fullerton College, CA)
                  Web Site: http://www.peterkirby.com/
                • Wade and April
                  ... From: William Arnal ... I ... I ... April s article is not online for free. It is available as a download for a charge from Brill s website for the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 3 2:02 PM
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "William Arnal"

                    > >Is April's
                    > >work available online? Can you easily send me your "rigorous work?"
                    >
                    > The answer to both questions is, probably not. I am not aware of April's
                    > article being on-line, nor my own. I know that sometime within the last
                    > couple years, someone had wanted to post my HTR piece on their website, so
                    I
                    > wrote to HTR about the copyright, and never got a response. I forget who
                    > wanted to do this, and don't know whether they went ahead with it anyway.
                    I
                    > doubt it.

                    April's article is not online for free. It is available as a download for a
                    charge from Brill's website for the Vigiliae Christianae publication. The
                    website is at:
                    http://lysander.ingentaselect.com/vl=2184547/cl=16/nw=1/rpsv/cw/brill/00426032/contp1.htm
                    and her article is under "Volume 56, Number 2 2003."

                    Wade
                  • sarban
                    ... From: Michael Grondin To: Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 5:51 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] Crosstalk
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 3 8:16 PM
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Michael Grondin" <mwgrondin@...>
                      To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 5:51 AM
                      Subject: Re: [GTh] Crosstalk Discussions


                      > This is notice that I've uploaded a spreadsheet for Gordon's
                      stratification
                      > scheme to our Files section (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gthomas/files)-
                      > together with a slightly emended version of his text (#68 was shown twice,
                      > with different shadings).
                      >
                      I'd like to thank Gordon for his work and then comment on it.

                      After reading through the Crosstalk discussion the basis for the
                      three layers seems the following.
                      Layer 1 is mainly the material in Thomas that goes back to the
                      Historical Jesus/Very Early Church
                      Layer 2 is mainly the material that goes back to the Church of
                      AD 70 and before
                      Layer 3 is mainly the substantially Post AD 70 material.

                      My difficulty is that these layers can be taken in 2 ways, either
                      i/ in a Form Critical way in which we are talking of the dates of
                      the origin of the sayings considered as isolated sayings
                      or ii/ in a Source or Redacton Critical way in which we are talking
                      of the dates and composition of various hypothetical documents.
                      If taken in sense i/ This seems valid in principle, (I agree some of
                      the sayings go back to the very earliest chrch some are well after
                      AD 70 some come inbetween), and although I would question
                      some of the details, Gordon's assignations of sayings to layers seems
                      mostly plausible.
                      However, from the general nature of Gordon's discussion and specific
                      suggestions about changes in order of sayings between Layers 1
                      and 2, it seems clear that the layers are to be taken as Source
                      documents for Thomas or Redactions of Thomas and I have
                      problems with this.

                      It is unlikely IMHO that there ever was a pre-70 document
                      attributed to Thomas, containing mainly the material which is in
                      our Thomas and goes back to the earliest church, and arranging
                      this material in a way similar to our Thomas. I think it more likely
                      that the selection and ordering of this material into a document
                      attributed to Thomas is later than AD 70, although the individual
                      sayings in the original form of this document may well be much earlier.

                      Nor am I convinced that all the early material in Thomas was
                      present in early versions of Thomas and that the last stage in
                      the redaction of Thomas was the addition of gnosticizing material.
                      It seems likely IMO that the last 10 sayings of our Thomas has
                      had gnosticizing material added at a very late stage, (maybe mid
                      2nd century). However most of the gnosticizing material in
                      Thomas may have been present in much earlier forms of the
                      document and some very early material, (eg the parables in
                      sayings 63-65 which IMHO interrupt the flow of Thomas's
                      themes), may have been added at a late stage, under the influence
                      of the canonical synoptic gospels.

                      Gordon, I may be misunderstanding what you are saying in
                      which case I apologize and would appreciate clarification.
                      Otherwise it would help if you went into more detail about how
                      you distinguish evidence for the date of origin of a saying from
                      evidence for the date at which a saying was incorporated in a
                      document.

                      Andrew Criddle
                    • Gordon Raynal
                      Hi Andrew, Thank you for your note. This is a most busy week for me, but I do want to get to your post. I ll see how the week goes re: time to think this
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 5 6:03 AM
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                        Hi Andrew,

                        Thank you for your note. This is a most busy week for me, but I do want to
                        get to your post. I'll see how the week goes re: time to think this through
                        and write a decent reply. But I will get back to you.
                        Gordon Raynal
                        Inman, SC
                      • Gordon Raynal
                        Hi Bill, This is a hectic week for we preacher folk, but just a quick reply to this one. ... May you now thaw:)! ... I do hope I can read hers and yours at
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 5 6:15 AM
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                          Hi Bill,

                          This is a hectic week for we preacher folk, but just a quick reply to this
                          one.

                          >
                          >>Good to hear from you! So you survived the winter freeze:)!
                          >
                          >And it was a BAD winter this year, for any number of reasons.

                          May you now thaw:)!
                          >
                          >>s April's
                          >>work available online? Can you easily send me your "rigorous work?"
                          >
                          >The answer to both questions is, probably not. I am not aware of April's
                          >article being on-line, nor my own. I know that sometime within the last
                          >couple years, someone had wanted to post my HTR piece on their website, so I
                          >wrote to HTR about the copyright, and never got a response. I forget who
                          >wanted to do this, and don't know whether they went ahead with it anyway. I
                          >doubt it.

                          I do hope I can read hers and yours at some point. Could you possibly snail
                          mail your piece?

                          >>To another matter, I'd like to hear your thoughts about the date and sitz
                          >>of
                          >>early Thomas. Do you conceive it, like you conceive Q1, "very early" (as
                          >>from you "Jesus and the Village Scribes" work)?
                          >
                          >Well, since I'm no longer convinced I was right, it's hard to say. But yes,
                          >my inclination was to regard the foundational layer as quite early. And I am
                          >STILL inclined to date the complete Thomas, i.e., Thomas as we more or less
                          >have it, as very early -- i.e., 40s to 60s or thereabouts. I have yet to be
                          >convinced by any of the arguments placing Thomas late-ish.

                          We agree on the former, but the latter interests me. I'd sometimes like to
                          hear your thoughts about the sitz you see that led to that later layer(s) so
                          early. When I look at what I consider to be the earliest layer, that social
                          praxis looks to be changing in saying 6 and then saying 14:1-2 looks to be
                          taking this in yet a new way. That latter redaction of the earliest layer
                          fits nicely into the second century, but it fascinates me that you want to
                          place such so early. When you have time and I have some time to talk this
                          out, I'd like to do so.

                          Good to hear from you.
                          Gordon
                        • William Arnal
                          ... I could, but it might be quicker to find a local university library that carries HTR. If you want, though, I ll mail it to you -- e-mail me off list with
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 6 7:36 PM
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                            Hey Gordon, and everyone:

                            >I do hope I can read hers and yours at some point. Could you possibly
                            >snail
                            >mail your piece?

                            I could, but it might be quicker to find a local university library that
                            carries HTR. If you want, though, I'll mail it to you -- e-mail me off list
                            with you mailing address. And please, no requests from others! I'd run out
                            of time, and postage, pretty quickly.

                            >We agree on the former, but the latter interests me. I'd sometimes like to
                            >hear your thoughts about the sitz you see that led to that later layer(s)
                            >so
                            >early. When I look at what I consider to be the earliest layer, that social
                            >praxis looks to be changing in saying 6 and then saying 14:1-2 looks to be
                            >taking this in yet a new way.

                            Social praxis can change overnight, or in a year or two. It doesn't require
                            decades. Paul's coail praxis changes from letter to letter. If we used the
                            same techniques used to date Thomas to date Paul's letters, we'd end up
                            dating letters like 1 Cor and Philippians to the second century, I suspect.

                            >When you have time and I have some time to talk this
                            >out, I'd like to do so.

                            Sounds good. It's the end of term for me, so I don't have any more time at
                            the moment to develop this stuff than you do. Later, then.

                            cheers,
                            Bill
                            ______________________
                            William Arnal
                            University of Regina

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                          • BitsyCat1@aol.com
                            ... I think that many are overly cautious of Thomas because they still ascribe to the theory that there is Guilt by association. That is, because it was found
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 6 9:26 PM
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                              In a message dated 04/06/2004 09:40:17 PM, warnal@... writes:

                              > ... Thomas to date Paul's letters, we'd end up dating letters
                              > like 1 Cor and Philippians to the second century, I suspect.


                              I think that many are overly cautious of Thomas because they still ascribe
                              to the theory that there is Guilt by association.

                              That is, because it was found in the Nag Hummadi that it must then be late
                              and Gnostic.

                              As noted this is a false Premise.

                              I would also note that Davies has suggested a pre existent Jewish Gnostic
                              like Genre emerging in the first century.

                              If this were so?

                              The Jewish revolt in the 60s may have caused the dissolution and
                              scattering of the proponents of this Genre and Belief system.

                              Failing the initial movement This would then be taken up" after the
                              Revolt" by the emerging Christian Church.

                              That is it may be understandable that such would disappear, For a time
                              only to emerge later..
                              It might very well be expected.

                              John Moon
                              Springfield, Tenn 37172
                              johnmoon3717@...


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