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Re: [GTh] Re: Gospel according to Hebrews and Thomas

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  • Michael Grondin
    ... Maurice, This wording is so similar to Thomas that of course I had to look it up right away. Could Meyer have missed it in his copious citation of literary
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 4, 2004
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      Maurice wrote to Andrew C.:
      > Interesting approach to the issue ... however, with respect to
      > the first part of your post, I am not sure how or why it is important
      > to speculate on where the substance of logion #2 originated from,
      > since Plato (Timaeus 90)recorded it long before the Gospel according
      > to the Hebrews was seemingly written. (In Plato's words ... "He that
      > seeks will not rest until he finds; and he that has found shall
      > marvel; and he that has marveled shall reign; and he that has reigned
      > shall rest.")

      Maurice,
      This wording is so similar to Thomas that of course I had to look it up
      right away. Could Meyer have missed it in his copious citation of literary
      precedents? Well, I couldn't find it either. There is a sentence in Timaeus
      90 that vaguely resembles it, but so vaguely you wouldn't know it if you
      were just reading through. Can you please recheck this claim?

      Mike Grondin
      Mt. Clemens, MI
    • sarban
      ... From: jmgcormier To: Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 2:41 AM Subject: [GTh] Re: Gospel according to Hebrews
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 5, 2004
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "jmgcormier" <cobby@...>
        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 2:41 AM
        Subject: [GTh] Re: Gospel according to Hebrews and Thomas


        > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@s...> wrote:
        > > Thomas Logion 2, (Jesus said Let him who seeks not
        > > cease seeking until he finds. And when he finds he will
        > > be troubled and when he is troubled he will be astonished
        > > and he will rule over the All.), is quoted by Clement of
        > > Alexandria but attributed by him to the Gospel according
        > > to the Hebrews. There are variants of this saying in The
        > > Book of Thomas the Contender and The Acts of Thomas,
        > > so the saying seems strongly associated with the Thomas
        > > tradition.
        > > Did the Thomas tradition borrow from an early version of the
        > > Gospel according to the Hebrews ?
        > > Did the Gospel according to the Hebrews borrow from the
        > > Thomas tradition ?
        > > Did Clement make a mistake in attribution ? (This is the
        > > only passage attributed by Clement to the Gospel according
        > > to the Hebrews)
        > > Most commentators seem to prefer the first option, I have
        > > a wild idea that the truth may be a variant of the third.
        > > If Logion 42, (Jesus said Be passers-by), goes back to a
        > > Semitic language saying 'Be Hebrews', (see Essay by Baarda
        > > and previous discussion on this Group) and if Clement was
        > > aware of this he might have deliberately referred to our
        > > Thomas as the Gospel of the Hebrews.
        > >
        > > Andrew Criddle
        > >
        > > ------------------------------
        >
        > Hello Andrew:
        >
        <SNIP>
        >
        > What I find moreso interesting about your note is the
        > interpretation which the Baarda essay seems to give to logion 42
        > (Become Hebrews). This sounds very "unJesus like" to me in the Thomas
        > context since logion 42 is prefaced therein by "Jesus said". Thus, how
        > could Baarda's interpretation make sense to the "Thomas community" ?
        >
        > While Jesus indeed tells his flock to "go to James the Just" in
        > Thomas' gospel (James being associated with the Jerusalem/Hebrew
        > community), it also gives great (actually "greater") importance to
        > John the Baptist (an Essene) in logion 46, and as an Essene, John has
        > to be seen as a bit of an outcast or a rebel from the typical Hebrew
        > milieu. Does this not moreso suggest to us that logion 42 really means
        > "Be passer-bys of material/carnal values" than it does "Be Hebrews"
        > ... unless, of course, if "being a Hebrew" means "abstain from
        > material/carnal values" ...
        >
        > Maurice
        >
        >
        According to Baarda
        'Be Hebrews' in 42 (seen as good)
        is contrasted with 'Become as the
        Jews' in 43 (seen as bad).
        Hebrews are the true spiritual children
        of Abraham compared to Jews who
        are the biological or natural descendants
        of Abraham.

        Andrew Criddle


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