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Re: [GTh] Lost Christianities

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  • rusty
    ... ... ... to ... witness ... If I may be so bold, ISTM that the concept of mystical ascents arose at least by the 5th Century BCE. I would
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 14, 2004
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      --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@s...> wrote:
      <snip>
      > I would agree that a date in the 1st century CE makes reference to
      > mystical ascents unlikely, whereas I would have no problem if the
      > date is 150 or later.
      >
      <snip>
      > The general issue as mentioned above is the diversity of witnesses
      to
      > heavenly ascents from at least 300 onward. IMO this makes it an idea
      > which is developing in the 2nd century among esoteric thinkers. If
      > Thomas in its present form dates from the 2nd century it could
      witness
      > to an early form of this idea. If Logion 50 dates from before AD 70
      > I would agree it would be unlikely
      >
      > Andrew Criddle

      If I may be so bold, ISTM that the concept of mystical ascents arose
      at least by the 5th Century BCE. I would offer as an example
      Parmenides Proem as pre-Socratic evidence.

      When you say "developing in the 2nd century among esoteric thinkers"
      do you refer to the Ophites for example?

      Rusty
    • sarban
      ... From: rusty To: Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Lost Christianities
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 14, 2004
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "rusty" <delightmaker1950@...>
        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 1:40 PM
        Subject: Re: [GTh] Lost Christianities


        > --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@s...> wrote:
        > <snip>
        > > I would agree that a date in the 1st century CE makes reference to
        > > mystical ascents unlikely, whereas I would have no problem if the
        > > date is 150 or later.
        > >
        > <snip>
        > > The general issue as mentioned above is the diversity of witnesses
        > to
        > > heavenly ascents from at least 300 onward. IMO this makes it an idea
        > > which is developing in the 2nd century among esoteric thinkers. If
        > > Thomas in its present form dates from the 2nd century it could
        > witness
        > > to an early form of this idea. If Logion 50 dates from before AD 70
        > > I would agree it would be unlikely
        > >
        > > Andrew Criddle
        >
        > If I may be so bold, ISTM that the concept of mystical ascents arose
        > at least by the 5th Century BCE. I would offer as an example
        > Parmenides Proem as pre-Socratic evidence.
        >

        I'm not sure that Parmenides's allegorical account of his passage
        from the realm of night to the realm of day counts as an ascent
        narrative at all.
        However, I entirely agree that there are a number of pre-Christian
        ascent narratives, eg some of the myths in Plato's dialogues, some
        early apocalyptic (I Enoch), the 'Dream of Scipio' etc.
        What I meant by the idea of heavenly ascents is when such ascents
        become a standard form of spiritual experience to be sought after by
        specific spiritual exercises.
        I egard this concept as something that arises in the 2nd century CE

        > When you say "developing in the 2nd century among esoteric thinkers"
        > do you refer to the Ophites for example?
        >
        The Ophites according to Celsus according to Origen would be one
        example. Some of the Nag Hammadi texts would also be relevant.
        (A good example is the Hermetic Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
        also see the treatises Zostrianos and Allogenes)
        The Pseudo-Chaldean Oracles are another good example.

        Andrew Criddle
      • fmmccoy
        ... From: sarban To: Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:31 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] Lost Christianities ...
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 15, 2004
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "sarban" <sarban@...>
          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:31 PM
          Subject: Re: [GTh] Lost Christianities


          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
          > To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 5:30 PM
          > Subject: Re: [GTh] Lost Christianities
          >
          >
          > > The one he selects as most likely is the fourth one, i.e.,
          interrogations
          > > during mystical ascents. However, there apparently are no other sayings
          > in
          > > Thomas that regard mystical ascents, so I think this unlikely.


          > I think it is at least as likely to be an ascent after death
          > as a mystical ascent during life


          Hi Andrew!

          If 50 regards a meeting with angelic powers while ascending, I think that it
          most likely involves an ascent after death.

          The reason is that, while (to the best of my knowledge) there is no first
          century CE example of the idea of a mystical ascent during one's life that
          involves meeting angelic powers who bar the way unless one says the proper
          thing, there is an apparent first century CE example of the idea of an
          ascent after death that involves meeting divine beings who bar the way
          unless one says the proper thing. This is in Mithraic thought.

          When I speak of Mithraism, I am referring not to original Mithraism as
          practiced in its homeland but, rather, to the Hellenized version of it that
          initially spread through the Hellenistic states and then, later, through the
          Roman Empire.

          One of the important areas in which it was Hellenized was in respect to
          cosmology. In particular, it embraced a new cosmology, based on
          Eratosthenes' measurements of shadows at different latitudes proving that
          the earth is round (although the theory that the earth is round was perhaps
          first made by Pythagoreas). In this new cosmology, it was posited that
          cosmos consists of a number of spheres, the innermost one being the earth.

          Three basic spheres were posited: (1) the innermost sphere of the earth, (2)
          an inner heaven sphere consisting of the seven planets, and (3) an outer
          heaven sphere consisting of the fixed stars. Philo mentions the two
          heavenly spheres in Cher (23), "One of the (two) Cherubim then symbolizes
          the outermost sphere of the fixed stars. It is the final heaven of all, the
          vault in which the choir of those who wander not move in a truly divine
          unchanging rhythm, never leaving the post which the Father who begat them
          has appointed them in the universe. The other of the (two) Cherubim is the
          inner contained sphere, which through a sixfold division He has made into
          seven zones of regular proportion and fitted each planet into one of them."

          Further, as Philo hints at above, the inner heaven sphere was, itself,
          divided into seven sub-spheres--one for each of the planets. So, the total
          number of spheres, not counting the earth, was eight.

          The totality of the cosmos, though, was conceived to be one sphere, whose
          surface is identical to the surface of the outer heaven sphere
          consisting of the fixed stars. This was called the cosmic globe and it was
          frequently depicted with two crossed circles, one being the circle of the
          zodiac and the other the circle of the celestial equator.

          When Mithraism embraced this new cosmology, it posited that human souls
          reside in the outer sphere of the fixed stars, that they descend from there
          to earth, and that they return to their homeland in the fixed stars after
          the death of the body by ascending up a cosmic ladder with eight gates, one
          for each of the seven spheres of the planets and one for the eighth sphere
          of the fixed stars.

          So, in The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries, David Ulansey (p. 87) states,
          "According to Celsus, in the Mithraic mysteries 'there is a symbol of the
          two orbits in heaven, the one being that of the fixed stars, and the other
          that assigned to the planets, and of the soul's passage through these. The
          symbol is this. There is a ladder with seven gates and at its top an eighth
          gate.' In addition, the Neoplatonist Porphyry attributes to Mithraism a
          complicated conception of the soul's celestial descent and ascent into and
          out of incarnation...."

          Further, it appears that each gate was guarded by an angelic being and that
          one had to know the appropriate formula to say to each in order to proceed.
          So, in The Mysteries of Mithra, Franz Cumont (pp. 144-145) states, "The
          (inner) heavens were divided into seven spheres, each of which was conjoined
          with a planet. A sort of ladder, composed of eight superposed gates, the
          first seven of which were constructed of different metals, was the symbolic
          suggestion in the temples, of the road to be followed to reach the supreme
          region of the fixed stars. To pass from one story to the next, each time
          the wayfarer had to enter a gate guarded by an angel of Ormazd. The
          initates alone, to whom the appropriate formulas had been taught, knew how
          to appease these inexorable guardians."

          The realm of souls in the fixed stars, from which human souls came and to
          which they returned, was a realm of light. Cumont (p. 145) states, "It
          (i.e., the soul) was naked, stripped of every vice and every sensibility,
          when it penetrated the eighth heaven to enjoy there, as an essence supreme,
          and in the eternal light that bathed the gods, beatitude without end."

          All this might relate to 50, "If they say to you, 'Where did you come
          from?', say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came
          into being on its own accord and established [itself] and became manifest
          through their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?', say, 'We are its
          children and we are the elect of the Living Father.' If they ask you, 'What
          is the sign of your Father in you?', say to them, 'It is movement and
          repose.'"

          In this case, we have, in 50, souls/spirits who have originated in the light
          of the outer heaven of the fixed stars and who become incarnate in human
          beings and who, upon the death of the body, are seeking to return from
          whence they came. Further, in this case, the "they" are the angelic powers
          who bar each of the eight gates through which these these souls/spirits must
          pass. Finally, in this case, the three answers are three of the formulas a
          soul needs to get past each of the eight angelic gate-keepers and ascend up
          the cosmic ladder back to its original home in the light of the outer sphere
          of the fixed stars.

          Despite the good "fit" that can be made between the Mithraic belief system
          and 50, I have serious reservations about the hypothesis that 50 ought to be
          interpreted in terms of this Mithraic belief system.

          In the first place, I find it noteworthy that the only two named sources on
          Mithraism in the quotations above are Celsus and Porphry. Celsus wrote c.
          170 CE and Porphry wrote almost a century later. As a result, if Thomas
          dates to 150 CE or earlier, then the Mithraic belief system described above
          is the Mithraic belief system as it was later than the writing of Thomas.
          So, this is not necessarily the same Mithraic belief system in place when
          Thomas was written.

          More seriously, I suspect that there is a rejection of this Mithraic belief
          system in the first part of GTh 11.

          There is one part of this Mithraic belief system that I haven't mentioned
          yet, but does need to be discussed before turning to the first part of GTh
          11 because it appears to be alluded to in 11.

          In this Mithraic belief system, there are two celestial twins, Cautes and
          Cautopates, who are torch-bearers. Further, these two celestial twins who
          are torch-bearers were equated with another set of twins, i.e., the Dioscuri
          (Castor and Pollux). As a result, in Mithraic artwork, one sometimes finds
          the two Dioscuri instead of (as expected) the two torch-bearers.

          For example, in Backgrounds of Early Christianity, Everett Ferguson (p. 295)
          states, "The seven degrees of initiation (into the Mithraic mysteries) thus
          corresponded to the order of the seven planets in astrology. The initiate
          who had passed through all degrees could, on his death, pass through the
          planetary spheres to paradise. The Ostia mosaic shows before the seven
          grades a large vase, thought to refer to some preliminary purification by
          water and the helmets of the Dioscuri (who were often understood as
          symbolizing the two celestial hemispheres)."

          The two Dioscure, however, did more than just symbolize the two celestial
          hemispheres. Rather, each was one of the two celestial hemispheres. So, in
          Dec (56), Philo declares, "So too in accordance with the theory by which
          they divided the (outer) heaven into two hemispheres, one above the earth
          and one below it, they called them the Dioscuri and invented a further
          miraculous story of their living on alternate days."

          Underlying this belief is a variant of the legend of the Dioscuri in which
          Castor was a mortal who was killed and that the other Dioscuri bestowed half
          of his immortality on Castor, making each mortal in one respect, yet
          immortal in another As a result, they alternate being dead and alive.

          The upshot: In Mithraic thought, the two twin torchbearers were equated with
          the Dioscuri. As the Dioscuri, they are the two hemispheres of the outer
          heaven of the fixed stars and they alternate being dead and alive.

          Now, let us turn to 11a, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it
          will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die."

          "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away." That is
          to say, the sphere of the inner heaven, the realm of the seven planets with
          its seven sub-spheres, will pass away and the sphere of the outer heaven,
          the realm of the fixed stars, will also pass away. So, I see this as a
          denunciation of the Mithraic idea that the eternal realm of light, from
          which human souls originate and to which they seek to return, is to be found
          in the outer sphere of the fixed stars. Rather, this outer heaven is, like
          the inner heaven of the planets with its seven sub-spheres, something that
          will someday cease to exist.

          "The dead are not alive, and the living will not die." The idea that the
          two hemispheres of the outer heaven are the two Dioscuri and that they
          alternately die and come to life is false. One who is dead remains dead,
          and one who is immortal will not die. Hence, Castor cannot be restored to
          life nor, if his twin brother is immortal, can he be subject to death. So, I
          see this as a denunciation of the Mithraic idea that the two torchbearers
          are the Dioscuri and that they are, as such, the two celestial hemispheres
          and are alternately dying and coming again to life.

          So, I think, the Thomas community was aware of this Mithraic belief system.
          However, I see, in 11a, a rejection of this Mithraic belief system.
          Therefore, despite the fact that 50 is readily interpretable in terms of
          this Mithraic belief system, I think it highly unlikely that it ought to be
          interpreted in terms of this Mithraic belief system.

          Still, simply because they apparently were aware of this Mithraic belief
          system, it could be that, even though they rejected it, they still were
          influenced by it.

          For example, take the notion, in 50, that human souls/spirits originate in a
          place of light. This Thomistic notion might have arisen due to the the
          influence of the Mithraic belief that human souls originate in a place of
          light of the outer heaven of the fixed stars. However, if so, then the
          Thomas community, as they believed the outer heaven of the fixed stars to be
          perishable, assigned this place of light to a different location.

          Indeed, in 2 Cor. 12:1-4, Paul speaks of a man who ascended into the third
          heaven, which Paul calls Paradise.

          So, I think it possible that the Thomas community, under Pauline influence,
          transferred the place of the light, from which human souls/spirits
          originate, from the second outer heaven of the fixed stars to a postulated
          eternal third heaven above it and gave this postulated third eternal heaven
          the name of Paradise. If so, then, in Thomas thought, the place of light,
          from which human souls/spirits originate, is mentioned in 19b, "For there
          are five trees of life for you in Paradise,..".

          Again, it could be that the Thomas community was influenced by the Mithraic
          notion of gates and gate-keepers and of the need of the soul/spirit to have
          the necessary response for each gatekeeper in order to ascend back to whence
          it came in the place of light, but reduced the gates to three: (1) a gate
          into the inner heaven sphere of the seven planets, (2) a gate into the outer
          heaven sphere of the fixed stars, and (3) a gate into the third eternal
          heaven called Paradise. In this case, in 50, the "they" are the three
          gatekeepers for these three gates and the three answers one ought to
          memorize are the three necessary responses (one for each of the three
          gatekeepers) that the soul/spirit needs to give in order to successfully
          ascend back from whence it came in the place of light within the third
          eternal heaven called Paradise.

          The bottom line: Although the Thomas community apparently rejected
          this Mithraic belief system, they apparently were aware of it and it might
          have influenced their thought. For example, they might have been
          influenced by the Mithraic notion that human souls/spirits originate in a
          place of light before descending to earth into bodies, but have changed the
          location of the place of light from the second heaven of the fixed stars to
          Paul's eternal third heaven called Paradise. Again, they might have been
          influenced by the Mithraic notion of a system of gates and gate-keepers and
          necessary responses, but modified it into a system with one gate and
          gate-keeper for each of the three heavens and one response to memorize for
          each of the three gatekeepers.

          This is all highly speculative, so I think it unlikely. Still, this is
          within the realm of possibility and it does give a comprehensive explanation
          of GTh 50--including an explanation as to why there are exactly three
          answers to be memorized.

          Frank McCoy
          1809 N. English Apt. 15
          Maplewood, MN USA 55109
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