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Logion 50

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  • sarban
    In an earlier post I suggested that Saying 50 should be interpreted as instructions for the soul about what to say to the hostile Archons the world rulers of
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 3, 2004
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      In an earlier post I suggested that Saying 50
      should be interpreted as instructions for the
      soul about what to say to the hostile Archons
      the world rulers of the evil material universe.
      I claimed that this interpretation was supported
      by similar passages in clearly Gnostic texts.
      To clarify this claim I am now going to give
      examples of the Gnostic texts to which I was
      referring.

      First Apocalypse of James (Nag Hammadi)
      But when you come to them, one of them who is
      their guard will say to you, "Who are you or where
      are you from ?" You will say to him "I am a son and
      I am from the Father" He will say to you "What kind
      of son are you and what father are you from ?" You
      will say to him "I am from the Father who is pre-
      existent and I am a son in Him who is pre-existent"

      Irenaeus Adversus Haereses Book 1
      And they instruct them, when they come to the powers
      after they have died to say this "I am a son from the
      Father a son in him who is pre-existent"

      Epiphanius Haereses Book 26
      They quote a gospel forged in the name of the holy
      apostle Philip "The Lord revealed to me what the soul must
      say in ascending to heaven and how it must answer each
      of the powers above"

      Andrew Criddle

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    • Tom Saunders
      Hi Andrew, It seems to me that the following from the Apocalypse of James is also a good reference for your point about Archons. They are a type of the twelve
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 4, 2004
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        Hi Andrew,

        It seems to me that the following from the Apocalypse of James is also a good reference for your point about Archons.

        "They are a type of the twelve disciples and the twelve pairs, [...] Achamoth, which is translated 'Sophia'. And who I myself am, (and) who the imperishable Sophia (is) through whom you will be redeemed, and (who are) all the sons of Him-who-is - these things they have known and have hidden within them. You are to hide <these things> within you, and you are to keep silence. But you are to reveal them to Addai. When you depart."

        The Ap of James, the one we are talking about, there are two, seems closely related to Pistis Sophia, in that it names several of the women common in both texts. What seems critical to your argument is whether or not saying 50, and all of the related textual parallels in the Ap of James and others, are talking about just the pleroma. I think that there can be a double meaning to the saying dependent upon whether you are talking about death or apokatastasis.

        Archons seem to be suggestive of entities floating around the pleroma, when in fact they may be as the above passage suggests, forms of wisdom. We define Archon as: Archon: "Ruler" Refers to the creators and governing forces in the material world. The Demiurge and his angels (aeons). Similar to the concept of Barbelos or Monad. From a form of governing known in Alexandria. Like the term 'monad,' archons are used to explain pleromic entities in versions of the Gnostic explanations for creation.

        Like evil, in the forms of the GMary, archons, Achamoth, Echmoth, and Protennoia are symbolic entities. (Please forgive me if you where planning on "kicking the bucket" and having a conversation with Addai.) Like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, persona non, 'nada.' Lo Siento, Amigo!) Those entities are not named in Thomas, none of them from either creation or pleroma schema.

        In the GThom, we only have the 'light.' We have it in the pleromic state, and the kenomic state, if you come from it and go back to it, and through apokatastasis you aspire to it. Sophia, Logos, Achamoth, Echmoth, Addai, Pretennoia, and a host of others exist, but in the end they seem to be forms of wisdom, or the 'word.' "Deeps' in the Bruce Codex are interesting. It would be nice to get a better understanding of how the types of wisdom are understood.

        Tom Saunders
        Platter, OK












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      • Mike Grondin
        ... This is a serious and misleading error in quotation. The period that you put in after the word depart makes it appear that James is supposed to reveal
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 4, 2004
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          (Tom Saunders, quoting 1ApJames):
          > "You are to hide <these things> within you, and you are to keep silence. But you are to reveal them to Addai. When you depart."

          This is a serious and misleading error in quotation. The period that you put in after the word 'depart' makes it appear that James is
          supposed to reveal these things to Addai when he (James) departs. That is in fact how you apparently interpreted the passage, since
          you later say:

          > (Please forgive me if you where planning on "kicking the bucket" and having a conversation with Addai.) Like Santa Claus and the
          Easter Bunny ... Those entities are not named in Thomas, none of them from either creation or pleroma schema.

          From your erroneous conclusion that James is to talk to Addai AFTER he (James) "departs", you've drawn the additional erroneous
          conclusion that 'Addai' is a name for a heavenly figure. Both errors could have been avoided if you hadn't read the passage in question
          so hurriedly that you missed the whole point of it. In fact, there is no implied period after the word 'depart'. It's the beginning of a new
          sentence, the end of which you've illegitimately cut off:

          "When you (James) depart, immediately war will be made with this land. Weep, then, for him who dwells in Jerusalem. But let Addai
          take these things to heart. In the tenth year, let Addai sit and write them down."

          Addai was evidently a real person. Obviously, James is supposed to reveal his secrets to Addai BEFORE he (James) "departs". This
          passage is evidently a legitimacy-claim for writings attributed to Addai - or perhaps one of his sons mentioned in the damaged portion
          of the ms that follows.

          Mike Grondin
        • Tom Saunders
          Thank you Mike, There it is, living proof the blind leading the blind will fall in a ditch. Sorry. I have to laugh because I was trying to make the point how
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 4, 2004
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            Thank you Mike,

            There it is, living proof the blind leading the blind will fall in a ditch. Sorry. I have to laugh because I was trying to make the point how hard it is to put characters in the state of pleroma, and kenoma. OOOps.

            I find that I am not going to get any loans from (SOSU) Hayseed U. library for the texts we have mentioned. If anyone runs into a translated copy of the Stromata, Bk. 3, or the complete Books of Jeu, I would appreciate having them.

            Tom Saunders
            Platter, OK


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