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RE: [GTh] 24 Prophets

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  • Jacob Knee
    Don t know hwether this is helpful but I don t think that Kariye Camii (Church of St. Saviour in Chora, in Istanbul) is either a cathedral (i.e. the seat of a
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 8, 2003
      Don't know hwether this is helpful but I don't think that Kariye Camii
      (Church of St. Saviour in Chora, in Istanbul) is either a cathedral (i.e.
      the seat of a bishop) or 'early Byzantine' - the current building and its
      famous mosaics and frescoes dating to between the eleventh and fourteenth
      centuries.

      Best wishes,
      Jacob Knee
      (Cam, Glos.)

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mike McLafferty [mailto:mikemclafferty@...]
      Sent: 08 November 2003 00:57
      To: gthomas@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [GTh] 24 Prophets

      [snip]

      - It's in church iconography: "In some early Byzantine cathedrals, like
      Kariye Camii in Istanbul, Christ is represented surrounded by
      twenty-four prophets."

      [snip]
    • fmmccoy
      ... From: sarban To: Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 6:26 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] 24 Prophets ... Yes, there
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 9, 2003
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "sarban" <sarban@...>
        To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 6:26 AM
        Subject: Re: [GTh] 24 Prophets


        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Maurice Cormier" <cobby@...>
        > To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:17 AM
        > Subject: [GTh] 24 Prophets
        >
        >
        > > Greetings all ...
        > >
        > > Could someone give me a bit of a hand with Logion # 52. (My memory seems
        > > to be slipping on this one.)
        > >
        > > Logion # 52 refers to the "24" prophets. Today, we tend to divide the
        > > Old Testament prophets into the so-called "minor prophets" and the
        > > "major prophets". They are:
        > >
        > > A) Minor Prophets: Hosea,Joel,Amos,Obadiah,Jonah,Micah,Nahum,Habakkuk,
        > > Zephaniah,Haggai,Zechariah,and Malachi.
        > >
        > > B) Major Prophets: Isaiah,Jeremiah,Lamentations,Ezekiel,and Daniel
        > >
        > > These total 17 in all. However, as I recall, several other books of the
        > > Old Testament are also considered to be "Books of the Prophets" in
        > > Jewish tradition ... the total of which (again as I but vaguely recall
        > > now) added to the 17 mentioned above (minor and major) gives us a total
        > > of 24.
        > >
        > > Can anyone identify the 7 other Books which in Jewish tradition
        > > generally make up "The Prophets" bringing the total up to 24?
        > >
        > >


        > It is possible that the 24 prophets refer to the 24 books of the
        > Hebrew Bible (equal in content to the Protestant OT but counting
        > the 12 minor prophets as one book 1 & 2 Samuel as one book
        > 1 & 2 Kings as one book 1 & 2 Chronicles as one book and
        > Ezra-Nehemiah as one book. )


        Yes, there apparently were many late first century CE Jews who
        believed that all the scriptures had been written under prophetic
        inspiration, i.e., by prophet--with at least some of them believing that the
        scriptures total 24 books.

        In "Canon of the OT" ( Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 1,
        p.509),
        R.H. Pfeiffer states, "It was, however, generally believed that prophecy
        came to an end soon after the death of Ezra when the men of the Great
        Synagogue collected the scriptures; no book known to have been written later
        than Exra or Alexander the Great (in Jewish chronology this is paractiacally
        equivalent; cf. Seder Olam Rabba 30) could be deemed inspired. The earliest
        statements of this doctrine date from ca. A.D. 90, and are found in II (IV)
        Esd. 14 (*the twenty-four books of the OT* (my emphasis) were dictated,
        together with seventy esoteric apocalypses, to five scribes by Ezra in forty
        days)..."

        However, I am not convinced that this is the solution as to why there are
        said to be 24 prophets in GTh 52,

        For one thing, even if one assumes that there are 24 books in the Jewish
        sacred scriptures, first century CE Jews would not have believed that there
        were 24 authors, a separate one for each book (e.g., the one book containing
        the twelve minor prophets would have been taken to have been written by
        twelve authors, i.e., the twelve minor prophets, while the first five books
        (the Torah or Pentateuch) would have been taken to have had only one author,
        i.e., Moses). So, this fails to explain why there are said to be 24
        prophets in GTh 52.

        For another thing, in a recent post, Mike points out that there are 24
        blocks in GTh and that 8 of them have an odd number of lines and 16 have an
        even number of lines.

        This is reminiscent of the priestly courses--of which there were 24, 8 from
        descendents of Ithimar and 16 from descendents of Eleazar (I Chronicles
        24:1-19).

        Perhaps, then, there are said to have been 24 prophets in GTh 52 to indicate
        that there had been one prophet for each priestly course. In this case, the
        intent might be to imply that the prophets constitute the true priesthood.
        This would be in line with some other elements of GTh thought, e.g., the
        belief that circumcision of the spirit is the true circumcision.

        In any event, besides the usage of the number 24, there is another aspect to
        GTh 52 that I also find rather mysterious and difficult of understanding.
        This is the declaration of the disciples, to Jesus, that "all of them (i.e.,
        the prophets) spoke in You."

        I suspect that, this means, when a prophet spoke, it was really Jesus
        speaking.

        If so, then the disciples are identifying Jesus as being the Logos.

        For example, in Heres (259), Philo states, "Now with every good man it is
        the holy Logos which assures him his gift of prophecy. For a prophet (being
        a spokesman) has no utterance of his own, but all his utterance came from
        some somewhere else, the echoes of another's voice."

        What is your understanding of this cryptic phrase, "all of them spoke in
        You."? Do you agree that, it means, when a prophet spoke, it was really
        Jesus speaking? If not, what do you think it does mean?

        Frank McCoy
        1809 N. English Apt. 15
        Maplewood, MN USA 55109


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