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Re: [GTh] Thomas and Mary

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  • Michael Grondin
    ... It doesn t seem to me that this is so. In fact, I can t find the word light in GMary at all. On the other side, I don t see any discussion of visions in
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 26, 2003
      Tom Saunders wrote:
      > Almost everyone notes some sort of correlation to Mary and Thomas as
      > to the content and explanation to the texts. One, the texts seem to
      > relate the same ideas as to 'the vision' and the light.'

      It doesn't seem to me that this is so. In fact, I can't find the word
      'light' in GMary at all. On the other side, I don't see any discussion of
      visions in GThom. Aside from that, the concepts are plainly different. STM
      that the equating of GMary's 'vision' with GThom's 'light' is just wishful
      thinking on your part.

      > In the text of the GMary is a list of the levels of the powers of darkness
      > (demons).

      Where in GMary are these levels called either 'demons' or 'the powers of
      darkness'? The fourth power, which takes seven forms, is called 'the powers
      of wrath', not 'the powers of darkness'. As to the word 'demons', I don't
      see it anywhere. If that's your word that you're foisting on the text, it's
      no wonder that the things *you* call 'demons' - but which GMary does not -
      differ from NT demons (as you wrote in an earlier note.)

      > These powers of darkness on the 4th level, that Mary describes would
      > in fact have a counterpart of the light so to speak. There may not
      > actually be seven subjects or elements to this list ...

      What an odd thing to say, given that the text states that "the fourth power
      took seven forms". Do you have any reason to suppose that the author
      couldn't count?

      > The list in Mary is:
      > 1. Darkness
      > 2. Desire
      > 3. Ignorance
      > 4. Excitement of death
      > 5. Kingdom of the flesh
      > 6. Foolish wisdom of the flesh
      > 7. Wrathful Wisdom
      >
      > The first three subjects on the list are pretty straight forward and seem
      > to have obvious opposites. Darkness-light, desire-satisfaction of desire,
      > and ignorance-knowledge. I found the GThom to contain running
      > commentaries on the following:
      >
      > 1. (Darkness) Vision or the light.....
      > Thom Sayings: 5, 11, 15, 17, 22, 24, 26, 28, 33, 34, 37, 50, 59, 61, 77,
      > 78, 82, 83, 91, 113

      Let me stop right here and ask you exactly how you composed this list of
      sayings. Before looking at any of the members of the list, I had assumed
      that you were picking out sayings with the Coptic word for 'light' in them,
      but I see by looking at #5 that this isn't so. So what set of words are you
      using to construct this list? And have you actually looked at the Coptic, or
      are you going from an English translation? I am very much worried that your
      methodology is essentially worthless.

      > Because there are no opposites for 4. I stopped trying to correlate
      > sayings to the subject list and decided to hand over what I have put
      > together so far so the group could examine what I have done, recommend
      > any changes and possibly put the rest of the GThom in this model.

      What model? That GThom might contain concepts opposite to the seven "forms"
      of GMary's "fourth power"? Of course it might. So what? On the face of it,
      there's nothing in GThom about an upward journey of the soul, such as is
      found in GMary and other Gnostic writings, so I fail to see the intimate
      connection you keep pushing. STM that much more rigor and carefulness is
      required if you're going to go on in this vein.

      Mike Grondin
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