Re: [GTh] GTh 3/Deut 30:11-14 Parallels
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Bauer" <jbauer@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 3/Deut 30:11-14 Parallels
> > > There is an interesting parallel to saying #3 in Deuteronomy:11 Now
what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your
reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will
ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13
Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea
to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is
very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
> > >
> > For reasons given in earlier posts, I think that the Kingdom of GThomas
is Wisdom. So, I suggest, the Thomas community, since they took the "word"
of Deut. 30:11-14 to be the Kingdom, identified it as being Wisdom.
> Hi, Frank,
> If I had access to a Catholic Bible, I'd research this myself. I may have
> to run over to their office & pick one up if I seriously want to continue
> posting on this subject. It contains a number of added books & chapters
> called "the Apocrypha", although they're sometimes called
> "pseudopigraphical". I've noticed that people on this list are familiar
> with RSV & with the NHL, but I've never noticed anything regarding the
> Apocrypha. My question to you is, does your analysis have anything to do
> with Wisdom of Solomon?
My analysis of the relationship between Deut 30:11-14 and the first part of
GTh 3 does not directly relate to anything in the Wisdom of Solomon.
I do, though, think that the Wisdom of Solomon can help us to understand
some of the sayings in GTh.
For example, take the first sentence in GTh 2, "Let him who seeks continue
seeking until he finds." This might be related to Solomon 6:12, "Wisdom
is...found of such as seek her." If so, then what one is to seek in GTh 2
Jim, I recommend that you get an interlinear Septuagint bible. The
Septuagint bible includes the Wisdom of Solomon and the rest of the
Apocrypha. It was the most popular bible among early Christians, including
Paul, so it is very useful in doing researches on early Christian thought.
Many years ago, I found and bought an interlinear Septuagint bible at a
Christian book-shop located in a shopping mall. So, you might be able to
find one in a local Christian book-shop.
1809 N. English Apt. 15
Maplewood, MN USA 55109
- Hello -
Just in terms of parallels between GThomas and the book of Deuteronomy (but not "Deuteronomistic Theology"), here are a few besides GTh 3 and Deut. 30:11-14:
GTh Preamble - These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.
Deuteronomy 1:1 - "These are the words that Moses spoke to Israel in the Transjordan"
GTh 2 - Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds..."
Deut 4:29 - "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him..."
GTh 22 - "...eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot..."
Deut. 19:21 - "...eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."
GTh 23 - Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one out of a thousand, and two out of ten thousand..."
Deuteronomy 32:20 - "How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight..."
GTh 25 - Jesus said, "...guard him like the pupil of your eye."
Deut. 32:10 - "...he guarded him as the apple of his eye."
- Kevin Johnson
- Hi All,
Kevin presents an interesting set of parallels to Deuteronomy. But can we call them parallels that are intentional rather than coincidental? I don't see an intentional pattern that would lead me to believe that the GThom is about reinforcing the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses. The author of the GThom probably read Deuteronomy, but the GThom seems to be about another kind of "God," or 'light' as it is used in the GThom.
What do you think is in the "Old T" that really does reflect any thematic intentions of the GThom?
Platter Flats, OK
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall Helzerman" <rahelzer@...>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 3/Deut 30:11-14 Parallels
> Thanks to Andrew Criddle and Frank McCoy for their replies.
> Andrew writes:
> > There are several direct quotes from Deuteronomy in the
> >canonical Gospels, e.g. Jesus' replies to Satan during the
> >temptation in the wilderness all come from Deuteronomy.
> >Thomas, on the other hand, tends to avoid direct reference
> >to Old Testament scripture.
> Interesting point. However, by "Deuteronomistic Theology"
> I don't necessarily mean just quotes from the book of
> Deutoronomy; see below:
> > How do you define "deutronomistic theology"? I'd like your answer
> > attempting to address either of the two questions you raise.
> There is a hypothesis that the books Deuteronomy through II Kings
> were formed under the influence of a theology which was
> prominent at the time of Josiah. There's some good web pages
> about it--just do a google query of "Deuteronomistic Theology".
> Another similarity between GTh and the Deuteronomistic Historical
> record (Deut through II Kings) is the complete lack of concern for
> the Devil.
As I understand "Deutreronomistic Theology" it contains a strong emphasis
on "Salvation History", God revealing himself to his people through mighty
The tendency in the Gospel of Thomas to see Jesus as a revealer of timeless
spiritual truths seems to come from a different world of thought.
- Replies to Kevin Johnson, Tom Saunders, and Andrew Criddle:
Thanks much to Kevin Johnson for the list of
parallels with Deuteronomy! Very interesting.
Tom Saunders asks a good question:
> What do you think is in the "Old T"Well, lets try to list some thematic parallels:
> that really does reflect any thematic
> intentions of the GThom?
Deuteronomy is a list of sayings given by Moses before he died.
GTh is a list of sayings given by Jesus before he died.
Moses looks forward to the entry into the promised land.
Jesus looks forward to the entry into the Kindom of Heaven.
Moses will die before the children of Israel enter the promised land.
Jesus will die before his followers enter the kindgom of heaven.
Deuteronomy is not concerned with Satan or the Devil at all.
GTh is not concerned with Satan or the Devil at all.
Deuteronomy lists laws prescribing how to live in the promised land.
GTh lists laws presecribing how to live in the kindgom of heaven.
Andrew Criddle writes:
> The tendency in the Gospel of Thomas to seeAgreed, its a different world of thought, but perhaps
> Jesus as a revealer of timeless spiritual truths
> seems to come from a different world of thought.
GTh uses adopts some themes from Deuteronomistic Theology?
Could the GTh be patterened on the book of Deuteronomy?
Just wondering aloud,
- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Achilles37@a... wrote:
> Hello -Deuteronomy (but not "Deuteronomistic Theology"), here are a few
> Just in terms of parallels between GThomas and the book of
besides GTh 3 and Deut. 30:11-14:
>spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.
> GTh Preamble - These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus
> Deuteronomy 1:1 - "These are the words that Moses spoke to Israel inthe Transjordan"
> GTh 2 - Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he
> Deut 4:29 - "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you willfind him..."
>hand, and a foot in place of a foot..."
> GTh 22 - "...eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a
> Deut. 19:21 - "...eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, footfor foot."
>two out of ten thousand..."
> GTh 23 - Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one out of a thousand, and
> Deuteronomy 32:20 - "How could one man chase a thousand, or two putten thousand to flight..."
>I recall a discussion on this forum some time ago where some one was
> GTh 25 - Jesus said, "...guard him like the pupil of your eye."
> Deut. 32:10 - "...he guarded him as the apple of his eye."
> - Kevin Johnson
making the case that GThom had absolutely no interest in the Old
Testament and no real references to the OT. The above is too
extensive to be a coincidence and would seem to contradict that