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Re: [GTh] GTh 3/Deut 30:11-14 Parallels

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  • Jim Bauer
    ... obey ... No, ... may ... ... of ... Hi, Frank, If I had access to a Catholic Bible, I d research this myself. I may have to run
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 7, 2003
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      <Randy>
      >
      > > There is an interesting parallel to saying #3 in Deuteronomy:
      > >
      > > 11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or
      > beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask,
      > "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may
      obey
      > it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will
      > cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14
      No,
      > the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you
      may
      > obey it.
      > >
      <Frank>
      <snip>
      >
      > For reasons given in earlier posts, I think that the Kingdom of GThomas is
      > Wisdom. So, I suggest, the Thomas community, since they took the "word"
      of
      > Deut. 30:11-14 to be the Kingdom, identified it as being Wisdom.
      >
      Hi, Frank,

      If I had access to a Catholic Bible, I'd research this myself. I may have
      to run over to their office & pick one up if I seriously want to continue
      posting on this subject. It contains a number of added books & chapters
      called "the Apocrypha", although they're sometimes called
      "pseudopigraphical". I've noticed that people on this list are familiar
      with RSV & with the NHL, but I've never noticed anything regarding the
      Apocrypha. My question to you is, does your analysis have anything to do
      with Wisdom of Solomon?

      Jim Bauer
      Havre, MT
    • Randall Helzerman
      Thanks to Andrew Criddle and Frank McCoy for their replies. ... Interesting point. However, by Deuteronomistic Theology I don t necessarily mean just quotes
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 8, 2003
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        Thanks to Andrew Criddle and Frank McCoy for their replies.

        Andrew writes:

        > There are several direct quotes from Deuteronomy in the
        >canonical Gospels, e.g. Jesus' replies to Satan during the
        >temptation in the wilderness all come from Deuteronomy.
        >Thomas, on the other hand, tends to avoid direct reference
        >to Old Testament scripture.

        Interesting point. However, by "Deuteronomistic Theology"
        I don't necessarily mean just quotes from the book of
        Deutoronomy; see below:

        > How do you define "deutronomistic theology"? I'd like your answer before
        > attempting to address either of the two questions you raise.

        There is a hypothesis that the books Deuteronomy through II Kings
        were formed under the influence of a theology which was
        prominent at the time of Josiah. There's some good web pages
        about it--just do a google query of "Deuteronomistic Theology".

        Another similarity between GTh and the Deuteronomistic Historical
        record (Deut through II Kings) is the complete lack of concern for
        the Devil.
      • fmmccoy
        ... From: Jim Bauer To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 3/Deut 30:11-14
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 8, 2003
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jim Bauer" <jbauer@...>
          To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:37 AM
          Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 3/Deut 30:11-14 Parallels


          >
          >>> <Randy>

          > > > There is an interesting parallel to saying #3 in Deuteronomy:11 Now
          what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your
          reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will
          ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13
          Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea
          to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is
          very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
          > > >

          > <Frank>
          > <snip>
          > >
          > > For reasons given in earlier posts, I think that the Kingdom of GThomas
          is Wisdom. So, I suggest, the Thomas community, since they took the "word"
          of Deut. 30:11-14 to be the Kingdom, identified it as being Wisdom.
          > >

          > Hi, Frank,
          >
          > If I had access to a Catholic Bible, I'd research this myself. I may have
          > to run over to their office & pick one up if I seriously want to continue
          > posting on this subject. It contains a number of added books & chapters
          > called "the Apocrypha", although they're sometimes called
          > "pseudopigraphical". I've noticed that people on this list are familiar
          > with RSV & with the NHL, but I've never noticed anything regarding the
          > Apocrypha. My question to you is, does your analysis have anything to do
          > with Wisdom of Solomon?
          >

          Hi Jim:

          My analysis of the relationship between Deut 30:11-14 and the first part of
          GTh 3 does not directly relate to anything in the Wisdom of Solomon.

          I do, though, think that the Wisdom of Solomon can help us to understand
          some of the sayings in GTh.

          For example, take the first sentence in GTh 2, "Let him who seeks continue
          seeking until he finds." This might be related to Solomon 6:12, "Wisdom
          is...found of such as seek her." If so, then what one is to seek in GTh 2
          is Wisdom.

          Jim, I recommend that you get an interlinear Septuagint bible. The
          Septuagint bible includes the Wisdom of Solomon and the rest of the
          Apocrypha. It was the most popular bible among early Christians, including
          Paul, so it is very useful in doing researches on early Christian thought.

          Many years ago, I found and bought an interlinear Septuagint bible at a
          Christian book-shop located in a shopping mall. So, you might be able to
          find one in a local Christian book-shop.

          Regards,

          Frank McCoy
          1809 N. English Apt. 15
          Maplewood, MN USA 55109
        • Achilles37@aol.com
          Hello - Just in terms of parallels between GThomas and the book of Deuteronomy (but not Deuteronomistic Theology ), here are a few besides GTh 3 and Deut.
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 9, 2003
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            Hello -

            Just in terms of parallels between GThomas and the book of Deuteronomy (but not "Deuteronomistic Theology"), here are a few besides GTh 3 and Deut. 30:11-14:

            GTh Preamble - These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.
            Deuteronomy 1:1 - "These are the words that Moses spoke to Israel in the Transjordan"

            GTh 2 - Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds..."
            Deut 4:29 - "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him..."

            GTh 22 - "...eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot..."
            Deut. 19:21 - "...eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

            GTh 23 - Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one out of a thousand, and two out of ten thousand..."
            Deuteronomy 32:20 - "How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight..."

            GTh 25 - Jesus said, "...guard him like the pupil of your eye."
            Deut. 32:10 - "...he guarded him as the apple of his eye."

            Regards,

            - Kevin Johnson
          • Tom Saunders
            Hi All, Kevin presents an interesting set of parallels to Deuteronomy. But can we call them parallels that are intentional rather than coincidental? I don t
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 10, 2003
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              Hi All,

              Kevin presents an interesting set of parallels to Deuteronomy. But can we call them parallels that are intentional rather than coincidental? I don't see an intentional pattern that would lead me to believe that the GThom is about reinforcing the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Moses. The author of the GThom probably read Deuteronomy, but the GThom seems to be about another kind of "God," or 'light' as it is used in the GThom.

              What do you think is in the "Old T" that really does reflect any thematic intentions of the GThom?

              Tom Saunders
              Platter Flats, OK




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • sarban
              ... From: Randall Helzerman To: Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 3/Deut
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 10, 2003
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Randall Helzerman" <rahelzer@...>
                To: <gthomas@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:15 PM
                Subject: Re: [GTh] GTh 3/Deut 30:11-14 Parallels


                > Thanks to Andrew Criddle and Frank McCoy for their replies.
                >
                > Andrew writes:
                >
                > > There are several direct quotes from Deuteronomy in the
                > >canonical Gospels, e.g. Jesus' replies to Satan during the
                > >temptation in the wilderness all come from Deuteronomy.
                > >Thomas, on the other hand, tends to avoid direct reference
                > >to Old Testament scripture.
                >
                > Interesting point. However, by "Deuteronomistic Theology"
                > I don't necessarily mean just quotes from the book of
                > Deutoronomy; see below:
                >
                > > How do you define "deutronomistic theology"? I'd like your answer
                before
                > > attempting to address either of the two questions you raise.
                >
                > There is a hypothesis that the books Deuteronomy through II Kings
                > were formed under the influence of a theology which was
                > prominent at the time of Josiah. There's some good web pages
                > about it--just do a google query of "Deuteronomistic Theology".
                >
                > Another similarity between GTh and the Deuteronomistic Historical
                > record (Deut through II Kings) is the complete lack of concern for
                > the Devil.
                >
                As I understand "Deutreronomistic Theology" it contains a strong emphasis
                on "Salvation History", God revealing himself to his people through mighty
                saving acts.
                The tendency in the Gospel of Thomas to see Jesus as a revealer of timeless
                spiritual truths seems to come from a different world of thought.

                Andrew Criddle
              • Randall Helzerman
                Replies to Kevin Johnson, Tom Saunders, and Andrew Criddle: Thanks much to Kevin Johnson for the list of parallels with Deuteronomy! Very interesting. ...
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 10, 2003
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                  Replies to Kevin Johnson, Tom Saunders, and Andrew Criddle:

                  Thanks much to Kevin Johnson for the list of
                  parallels with Deuteronomy! Very interesting.

                  Tom Saunders asks a good question:

                  > What do you think is in the "Old T"
                  > that really does reflect any thematic
                  > intentions of the GThom?

                  Well, lets try to list some thematic parallels:

                  #1.
                  Deuteronomy is a list of sayings given by Moses before he died.
                  GTh is a list of sayings given by Jesus before he died.

                  #2.
                  Moses looks forward to the entry into the promised land.
                  Jesus looks forward to the entry into the Kindom of Heaven.

                  #3.
                  Moses will die before the children of Israel enter the promised land.
                  Jesus will die before his followers enter the kindgom of heaven.

                  #3.
                  Deuteronomy is not concerned with Satan or the Devil at all.
                  GTh is not concerned with Satan or the Devil at all.

                  #4.
                  Deuteronomy lists laws prescribing how to live in the promised land.
                  GTh lists laws presecribing how to live in the kindgom of heaven.


                  Andrew Criddle writes:

                  > The tendency in the Gospel of Thomas to see
                  > Jesus as a revealer of timeless spiritual truths
                  > seems to come from a different world of thought.

                  Agreed, its a different world of thought, but perhaps
                  GTh uses adopts some themes from Deuteronomistic Theology?

                  Could the GTh be patterened on the book of Deuteronomy?


                  Just wondering aloud,
                  -Randy Helzerman
                • swallison
                  ... Deuteronomy (but not Deuteronomistic Theology ), here are a few ... spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down. ... the Transjordan ... finds...
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 12, 2003
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                    --- In gthomas@yahoogroups.com, Achilles37@a... wrote:
                    > Hello -
                    >
                    > Just in terms of parallels between GThomas and the book of
                    Deuteronomy (but not "Deuteronomistic Theology"), here are a few
                    besides GTh 3 and Deut. 30:11-14:
                    >
                    > GTh Preamble - These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus
                    spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.
                    > Deuteronomy 1:1 - "These are the words that Moses spoke to Israel in
                    the Transjordan"
                    >
                    > GTh 2 - Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he
                    finds..."
                    > Deut 4:29 - "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will
                    find him..."
                    >
                    > GTh 22 - "...eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a
                    hand, and a foot in place of a foot..."
                    > Deut. 19:21 - "...eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot
                    for foot."
                    >
                    > GTh 23 - Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one out of a thousand, and
                    two out of ten thousand..."
                    > Deuteronomy 32:20 - "How could one man chase a thousand, or two put
                    ten thousand to flight..."
                    >
                    > GTh 25 - Jesus said, "...guard him like the pupil of your eye."
                    > Deut. 32:10 - "...he guarded him as the apple of his eye."
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > - Kevin Johnson

                    I recall a discussion on this forum some time ago where some one was
                    making the case that GThom had absolutely no interest in the Old
                    Testament and no real references to the OT. The above is too
                    extensive to be a coincidence and would seem to contradict that
                    hypothesis.

                    Thanks

                    Steve Allison
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